📅 Published on: 2024-11-25 09:15:01

⏱ Duration: 01:30:30 (5430 seconds)

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📝 Video Description:

How can the Detroit Red Wings turn things around, and when? Max Bultman of The Athletic Detroit joins us on this episode to discuss!

Tune in as we open by discussing Detroit’s 2-1 win over the New York Islanders on PAvel Datsyuk’s HHoF night in Hockeytown, including Jonatan Berggren breaking Sorokin’s shutout, Dylan Larkin’s great play to Lucas Raymond for the winner, Alex Lyon’s bounceback performance & more (3:40). Next, their disappointing loss to the Boston Bruins, including Seider, Edvinsson, Tarasenko connecting for a great goal and a whole lot of not much else in front of Cam Talbot, followed by a discussion of what Derek Lalonde’s team truly is at this point in the year, what’s realistic for them moving forward, potential trade targets for Steve Yzerman to focus on (David Jiricek, Trevor Zegras, Seamus Casey, Bowen Byram?), & more (16:00).

After that, updates as Jim Montgomery is immediately hired by the St. Louis Blues and what this means for Derek Lalonde, as well as Red Wings notes including Albert Johansson’s development, Amadeus Lombardi, and Dmitri Buchelnikov (37:55).

Next, Max’s “Good in the Room” segment covering the rising salary cap in the NHL, how Detroit’s core contracts are shaping up, and Steve Yzerman’s window to grab a superstar like Marner, Rantanen, or someone else to accelerate the rebuild (56:20).

Finally, NHL news including Alexander Ovechkin’s injury update (1:15:30) before we take your questions & comments in our Overtime segment (1:16:50) – enjoy!

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🕵️‍♂️ Transcript:

[Music] welcome to the wind wheel podcast the number one source for news analysis and discussion on the Detroit Red Wings the NHL and all things hockey here are your hosts Ryan Hannah Brad Chrisco and Evan Lop singer have away still so max you have to decide are you going to be the new Evan like pretend to be Evan this episode or are you just going to be Max bolman like a good in the room episode on the winged wheel podcast cuz folks might miss him and we’re kind of you know down his personality right now I think when you try to imitate greatness you set yourself up to fail so I’m just going to be me I I don’t think I can rise to the to the Evan standard well folks will have to suffer without Evan a little bit longer I was laughing before the show saying Max you’re the sacrificial lamb for this episode cuz it’s not like the Red Wings went out and had themselves a barn burner of a weekend where they turned everything around or there’s any big news or a trade or or any kind of change so you’re in here today with the impossible task of of talking about this team that is in neutral right now so welcome back max bolman of the athletic Detroit to the wing wheel podcast as a contributor for this month’s good in the room Max is joining us for the whole show you ready Max I’m ready I I I’ve prepared myself I’ve read a day of Twitter mentions there’s nothing that can be said to me here that’s going to shock or rattle me challenge accepted on this episode of The Winged wheel podcast we’re going to talk to you about the two Detroit Red Wings games since we last spoke the win against the New York Islanders and last night’s lost to the Boston Bruins takeaways from those games The Good the Bad the Ugly what is going on with this team if anything has changed at all what is going on moving forwards in the eyes of Max and ourselves we’ll talk about the schedule upcoming some coaching news across the NHL that might be pertinent to Detroit or might have been pertinent to Detroit some Red Wings notes and Max’s good in the room segment about the upcoming salary cap change and how much that could impact the Detroit Red Wings future before we get into NHL news and more all of that on this episode of the wind wheel podcast I’m one your hosts Ryan Hannah I’m Brad Chrisco I’m Max boltman so before we get into the show I first want to say a couple things the winged wheel podcast night at the LCA is on Saturday March 29th go to winged wheel podcast.com R Wings to get your tickets and Wing wheel podcast night in partnership with the gr Rapids Griffins is on Saturday January 18th go to Griffin hockey.com wwp to get those tickets the Red Wings event gets you a winged wheel podcast in Detroit Red Wings co-branded Barbara pole Jersey which is extremely exciting I know Brad is especially pumped up about that one and the Griffins event gets you the wind wheel podcast Grand Rapids Griffins gray toque so again Wing wheel podcast.com R wings and Griffins hockey.com wwp for those tickets they go fast and we already have the maximum amount loaded on there so once they’re gone they’re gone secondly this podcast is primarily supported by our patreon supporters patreon.com wheel podcast if you want to support the show you get access to benefits like our bonus overtime episodes and any other bonus content we create you’re automatically entered into all of our giveaways including two tickets that we give away to every Detroit Red Wings home game the vast majority directly to our patreon supporters and you also get access to the winged wheel podcast exclusive Discord so again patreon.com wied wheel podcast let’s start with the Islanders game I wish it was different it was a little different like it it wasn’t a a 10 shot Affair like it was a month ago for the Red Wings so that was a win the bar is lower than the top of Brad’s head which is exceptionally difficult to clear but a 2-1 win for the Red Wings and up until until Beren decided he had enough of sokin it was I I was ready to claw my eyes out because it was a Mucky game it was the Islanders playing Islanders hockey Detroit I think Had A Better Effort it wasn’t their like the effort they had against the Rangers so to speak but they still outshot the Islanders by eight shots I think it was yeah 3123 and the Islanders were just clogging everything up every lane every Puck it was just a chippy Mucky ugly hockey game game and that’s what you get with the Islanders yeah I mean I feel like we watch the same game not to get ahead of ourselves both times this weekend of you know just a really structured team a veteran team a team that plays a certain way that limits a lot and the Islanders game obviously went a little better for the Red Wings mostly I thought they had a pretty good third period push and I thought that was an important kind of sign of life I guess so to speak like a little bit of fire at the end of a game that I think really they needed to show coming off of that West Coast road trip and yeah it was not an interesting game I can’t say that but I think it was kind of an important game and and even if even though they come and lose the second one to Boston I do think what they did in in winning that Islanders game probably I don’t really want to like overstate it or anything but I I think it gave a little bit of proof that the team was kind of still uh invested still had had a little bit of fire to tap into there I love that you guys were so polite in dancing around the obvious with this game and you can it’s weird to say but you can lump the Bruins in with it too these were three very mediocre teams trying to play low event hockey because they can’t keep up in running gun hockey so you know the Spider-Man meme of three Spider-Man’s pointing at each other that could be used to describe the Islanders the wings and the Bruins right now underperforming teams who are doing what they can and again I don’t blame lone for this I wouldn’t blame Patrick W for this when you have a roster with this level of talent you have to win a certain way and we’ve talked about it it’s boring it’s a slog these are the type of games you’re going to get I will say I’ll take this over the games where the Red Wings only get 19 shots and give up 42 so the fact they outshot the Islanders is was a step in the right direction yeah and it’s concerning that it took till late in the third period to see that urgency that push but when they laid it on they did it well to the point where they got the win in the final minute of Regulation so you’re going to get this throughout many points in the season it’s frustrating I hate it but at least I can say I understand it yeah I I fully agree it wasn’t the best effort in the world but I think it was enough to win against the kind of team that the Islanders are like put it plain and simple the Islanders and the Bruins aren’t World beaters this year so as long as Detroit didn’t come in and have a miserable performance like they have in the past against the Islanders they stood a chance because they didn’t need the highest bar to clear like they did against the Rangers on Wing wheel podcast tonight when they fired everything at them and nothing went in so this was not the best but I’m not going to knock them and say it wasn’t great I also really want to emphasize how good it is that it was berren who scored because as lone did a line Shuffle leading up to this game Barren was kind of the odd man out where Casper got rewarded with that 2C spot Barren got you want to call it demoted I I know the lines got mixed ice time and stuff and he was playing with comfor but he could have taken that he could have been completely you know beat down by it he could have said this is a a knock to my confidence or the success I’ve had so far but no he was the guy who came in and made the difference I’m stating the obvious here but without Barren going in and taking advantage of the opportunity with a broken stick and breaking down and and scoring on one of the most talented goenda it up so much so I think berren scoring was a huge kind of secondary storyline for the Red Wings well both of their goal scorers that game are guys they needed to get going right like you know Beren and Lucas Raymond have both been you know Beren I think more snake bit Raymond I think need to shoot a little more than he has but also still a little unlucky you know we’ve seen him hit posts what whatnot both of those guys in The Islander game were were players who the redings needed to to start to get some confidence going and you see Raymond obviously get the first goal in the Boston game as a carryover are they related we will never know but I I think that this is the kind of thing that if you’re a Red Wings fan you’ve been wanting to see from Lucas Raymond who’s been one of their best players even without scoring goals but you want the goals to be there for a guy that’s this important to your team at this point it can’t he can’t all be assists so to speak and so for him to break through I think was huge and and certainly for bergren who I think he had three goals and a five game span there right and so he’s he now all of a sudden looks like a guy that you are counting on for some secondary offense in the mold of like what you were what you were getting from a Robbie fabry I think maybe even a little better than you were getting from a Daniel sprong not just in a pure goalscoring sense but I think you probably trust Berger in a little more at this point than than maybe you did sprong last year so that that was a very positive sign from a young player yeah we’ve talked about it all year there’s just no offense coming from this bottom six outside of when they put that tereno Casper Barren line together so the Hope was that if you bump one of those guys and it ended up being two of those guys into the top six the trickle down effect might be some goals in the bottom six now again I understand Leone’s reasoning and I can’t even fault him for it because it was really close to exactly what I would have done and Barren got the short end of the stick and got bumped down to whatever you want to call it third or fourth line based on quality I’ll call it the third but ice time could be a different thing it produced a third fourth line goal which the Red Wings have had precious few of this year and it ended up being the difference in the game so is tereno deserving of going up to the top line no absolutely not with the way he’s played this year but the big butt is you have a guy playing well like bergren and he’s been playing well for a while and then he gets a big goal at a big moment from a we’ll call it a quote unquote depth position in the lineup you know when you’re going to be playing the type of slogged out hockey the Red Wings have to you need these far more often than anybody would like to admit and I know that the the as you call it slog it out hockey is really unpopular for an obvious reason I do not typically tend to need caffeine in the Press Box and I certainly did on Saturday night right like it was not uh getting the getting the blood pumping hard right but I have to say I think the difference in these two games versus what happened in California I know everyone loves goals if you are playing the way the Rings are playing in California which I think is kind of how you have to play if you’re them to score four goals in a game they did it against Anaheim they did it against San Jose that is the consequence you’re going to give up five or six because you’re you’re just not built in the way that you were last year to to reliably trade chances and you were still giving up a bunch of goals last year but you had more scoring and so the amount of the the the loose the level of looseness I guess you have to play with right now to generate four goals probably would have gotten you six goals last year and it’s going to still give up five goals or whatever right and last year that meant you were going to win six to five and this year you’re going to lose six to four or whatever right so I I do think I know people hate watching it I know it’s boring I’m a little bored by it but they’re doing it because it is their only path to winning realistically I think and we’ve talked about that plenty this season like it’s this is where it’s the trade-off and where you have to look at the roster that Derrick lone has been handed and that’s not to completely absolve anyone the roster the coaching the management of any of the sins of this season but that I I think that’s speaks to that Max what you just mentioned because it’s it’s the reality of it okay you don’t want all this focus on team defense and you want all this focus on making sure that you’re covered in your own Zone and helping the defense well look at the defense they can’t get out of Their Own Zone unless you’re cider and Edinson and even then they’re getting only defensive Zone starts a lot of the time and so you need to have that structure or you’re you’re going to get shellacked so it sucks but the other way sucks so basically the position the Red Wings are in to try to stay treading water is which way sucks and very quickly Brad before I go back to you here we really miss Evan because Brad said big butt and no one was here to comment or laugh at it I just think that’s a sad thing the joy in life has gone a little bit right now the quality dips in the podcast in so many different ways no but what I was saying to Max’s point was yeah I don’t blame lone for the type of hockey they’re playing we’ve said it it’s just it’s a necessary evil with the talent in front of him so the red ended up winning that game off of a fantastic late game play by Dylan Lin where he goes hard into the corner works hard gets the puck out to Lucas Rond in front and as Max said a guy who they really want to get going and get scoring Lucas Raymond scores with under a minute left I think it was 52 seconds to get a regulation win for the Red Wings and Alex lion has a great bounceback game after a a rough performance before and gets a 30 save win Detroit gets a regulation win against the Islanders who if you know not projecting anything but let’s say Detroit by some small miracle is in the Wild Card race later the Islanders are probably one of the teams who may be in there with them you never know but it’s an important win to get in regulation and for how boring the game was up until berren changed the the pace that felt like a last season win where Raymond was a late game hero and the team did what they needed to do and happened at the LCA and you heard M&M come over and it was like that was fun it was just five minutes of fun but it was the most important five minutes and it was I think that was it got said a lot but Detroit needed that win like they needed air after the the California trip like everyone including us we’re talking about they need to make changes maybe is that the coaching staff do they have to make a trade and for a team who is down in the dumps and had lost to Anaheim and the Sharks and La you have to think how important that win was at home for them and it’s a tough situation because I think people are going to hear that and think that we’re still operating under the delusion that this is like a serious like playoff race I think the reding what are the redings Playoff OD I haven’t looked at Dom’s Dom’s projections they got to be under 5% right I mean even this early into a season it just like it’s not the math in the sense of like they’re whatever Five Points back it’s their Five Points back and they would have to play at I believe like 102 Point Pace the rest of the way and all of us are wise enough to know that they’re not playing at 102o PACE the rest of the way without some massive change to to the direction that you know it’s gone so we’re not saying it’s a big win in the sense of like and now they’re right back in it although they were I think a point out of the playoff race for a while and that I know that’s still an important thing for like morale and and all that stuff but I think it’s important because the the development of all these players the the character of the Season takes on you do not want it to become so toxic and yeah there’s an argument that like a top five draft pick is the single best thing that could happen to this franchise out of this season I’m not even disagreeing with that but the way that it gets to whatever that end point is it can’t deteriorate the locker room and the kind of I know people hate the word culture but I think you’re seeing right now how real culture is after the loss of like a David pan who I I know people will be quick to point out to the production he hasn’t had I’m not even saying that that contract is one that Detroit should regret not giving out but you are seeing what happens to a team when it loses some of its kind of passion at some of its like better word loudness in the locker room there when that energy goes away around the team you see it show up as a lack of energy on the ice and I don’t think that’s a sustainable thing that that the Red Wings can can have keep happening to them well this conversation is happening in the context of the game the next night which was the 2-1 loss to the Boston Bruins first period they go down Boston scores in the power play the most predictable thing in the world because I think I I wish I would have seen which user posted it but it was the Boston power play against the Detroit penalty kill and it was like that Meme where it was like coughing baby versus coughing baby just like two of the most pathetic things in the world and the Detroit penalty kill right now is we’ve there’s been a lot of air dedicated to it and there will be a lot more air dedicated to it it’s awful Detroit scores off of what I think is a fantastic play right at the end of the period where I think it might turn around their momentum it starts with moider breaking out from behind the net which was a kind of a a clench play for a second he had to make a move and Simon Edinson had to set a very smart pick breaks it out gets it to Dylan Lin who comes in leaves it for tereno at the line tereno makes a nice move to break in and break in successfully while holding control gets a puck out on his back end to Lucas Raymond who fires at home and again Raymond is now at four goals which isn’t anything to write home about but it’s more than he’s had recently and he’s now on a little bit of a pace and I think oh man maybe this is where Detroit turns it around and Russ that game as you mentioned earlier Max like kind of a slog and more of the same of what we’ve seen from the Red Wings offense I think the only reason this game didn’t get out of hand was because Boston is I’m going to put it transparently I put in the chat like Boston is way worse than I thought they were like I knew things weren’t going well but I was watching them play and I went holy this team has lost its way and maybe now is the downfall but a 2-1 game was probably the best Detroit could hope for based on what we saw for the rest of that yeah I mean I I still really like B A’s Blue Line makoy lorai Carlo Lind Holm like that’s it’s a good setup it’s just that the forwards have deteriorated so much from the Heyday Bruins right and I think we all expected this to happen ahead of last year when they lost berson and Cree it seemed almost kind of like a one-year delayed onset but all of a sudden this looks like David Pastak and old Brad marshand and a bunch of NPC NHL players for no disrespect intended I know that is actually pretty disrespectful but it it’s just kind of generic right is where I’m going with this right EV Is Here Charlie Coyle and and pavl Zach are really good players they should not be your top two line centers right and and you know obviously they now have aias Lindholm too in one of those but even he is not looking like the player that he was two or three seasons ago so it’s not the Bruins of old and they they can I think lean into this defensive identity and maybe squeak into that eighth spot on just how good the number of defensive players they have especially if Jeremy Swan can kind of recapture his form and become the player we all expected him to be certainly when he signed that new contract but but you’re right it is not the the Bruins of old and it is not the same as playing a hard fought 2-1 games against the Bruins that it was in 2022 23 yeah and like Max alluded to the Bruins biggest regression from last year is the offense and the Red Wings are struggling to generate offense and the Bruins are struggling to generate offense once again this is the recording this is what the game turns into and I think Max is right as well Swan can bounce back the Bruins probably have the inside track on the e seed despite all their aggression just because you know the Eastern Conference right now is just the Battle of mid like I don’t know how many people have checked the standings today the Buffalo Sabers are in the Atlantic third spot right now so it’s a whole new world where one hot streak can jump a team like the Buffalo Savers into a playoff spot and yeah there’s going to be very minute details that capture that last playoff spot Bruin’s defense might be it you know at least the one positive I take from this game it was awful to watch neither team played well but the Red Wings are on the trend up and the Bruins are on the trend down so at least we’re in a better spot than them yeah the theme of late has been look to the Future because with all these conversations of what does the team need to change in the immediate future and for the rest of the season and is this season I think once everyone takes a deep breath and once everyone thinks about the Outlook this season sucks and this season is is hard to watch in a lot of ways and this season is causing concern for different reasons and I’m not saying that can’t go beyond this year but it doesn’t wash away the good things that the Red Wings have in the works and it doesn’t wash away the good things that the Red Wings have in the works that we’re seeing right now on the ice in hockey town which is Edinson and Casper and let’s see how Barren continues to roll and and and so yeah that’s the positivity that they’re not the Boston Bruins and they’re not the Pittsburgh Penguins although I mean I’ll never slander a team with Sydney Crosby on it in terms of what they can do on the ice you know what I mean though that is what it is like we can talk about any different facet of that game how little Detroit controlled the puck or the shots in the third period you know teras senko you know he makes one great play offensively and then just a terrible you know play the other way it’s it’s more of the same of the Red Wings and it’s the story that’s been told there was no version of this game where you know they got goalie or they deserve to win based on the performance it just this was this season’s Red Wings that was a 2-1 loss against the Boston Bruins kind of fortunate that I was just two upcoming hold on to your seats the Red Wings have the New York Islanders on the road on Monday 7:30 p.m. Eastern sleep in have a coffee at 700 p.m. do whatever you need to do I’m trying to reverse Jinx that game into being a barn burner same way I did the other night like I I hate playing that team so much but that’s what the Red Wings have and they’re going to be on Long Island and then on Wednesday Calgary at home 7:30 p.m. Eastern and we’ll be back with you on Thursday so that’s what the Red Wings have ahead we’ve already gotten into this the discussion but Max this is the first time since you’ve been here what do we make of what the rest of this season is you mentioned the pace that they’re going to have to play on for any kind of realistic shot at the playoffs but if you’re Steve Eisman and Derrick lone right now you’re not trying TR to throw away the playoffs if you’re Dylan Lin you’re saying I’m not throwing away the playoffs you’re within a handful of points you’re within one hot weekend so what is there to do what internally needs to change for Detroit what externally do they need to bring in or move because it as much as people might be saying yeah the way they’re playing it’s not going to go anywhere they’re not going to throw in the towel no they’re not and I I checked while you were talking Dom has the playoff odds for the Red Wings at 2% that’s a shocking number this early in the season for a team that was within a tiebreaker of the playoffs last year but to your point like they are still within a hot streak of upping that number largely because of what’s gone on around them so they’re not going to give up on it in my opinion you know I I know that the people want to talk about kind of the idea of a of a coaching change and what kind of bump that could bring it’s possible Right like that’s always possible we’re seeing the Bruins of one two straight after a coaching change that happens I just look at the roster and think that that’s much more the culprit of where things are in a couple ways right there’s the talent side of it there’s the there’s the kind of leadership and energy side of it that I talked about I think everything that they do for the rest of this season though does have to kind of be through the lens of the future so I like seeing Marco Casper up on the second line I think that makes a lot of sense playing him with Patrick Kane is a really good experience for him I think he’s gotten a lot out of Patrick Kane actually because he goes and retrieves pucks and Kane’s found him in some dangerous areas Alex to Brink’s had a couple good chances when that Line’s been assembled together they haven’t scored I don’t believe yet but I think that’s coming so I think that’s like a good examp example of a way that they’re still certainly chasing the playoffs in their heads and trying to do that it helps them now but it’s also really important for the future I think it would be bad if Casper was kind of like buried in the bottom six or in the AHL right now when this is a great opportunity for him to play with one of the smartest hockey players of my lifetime and see that I also think there’s a trade angle to this that I think could make sense and you guys talked about it on the last show with With Ur and with zerris I think if they’re going to make a move I think a Rost move is the one that makes the most sense first bring in another young player who can give you a spark who can make the team feel like okay you know added something let’s see what this looks like whatever gives you a new thing to move around I think lon’s try Tyler M was on the top line for what felt like half of that I think it was the Islanders game he was on the top line for what seemed like half of that lone said that was just special team induced make of that what you will I I saw him out there quite a lot so it seems like they’re just trying everything at this point I would love to see a new piece injected in there and I think zis actually does make some sense to them he’s a little redundant for their issues right now he’s another kind of smaller guy who can be a little perimeter not that defensively responsible kind of have to monitor his deployment but Patrick Kane’s not going to be here forever and when he’s gone you’re going to desperately miss someone who has that kind of playmaking and vision and nobody has it at quite Kane’s level but of the current group of like 25 and under players zis is in pretty elite air for that particular trait he has a little more size than the skill guys that they have right now you know I I think that verbi being the one to trade him is probably a red flag given how similarly I think him and Eiserman see players and how closely tied they are I just don’t think that they have the ability to be that picky right now if he’s available for a good price I think that would make a lot of sense there’s a few d right now Chris Johnson on our website the athletic put out a trade board last week There’s a few defenseman on there that caught my eye Bowen Byam you guys talked about David Urich and then actually this one’s not on there but I think Sheamus C belongs on that list too a guy who was up with the Devils early in the season when they were hurt he’s back in the AHL he’s Casper’s draft year and he’s a point per game defenseman in the AHL right now I think that’s pretty much what they wanted Eric guson to be for them he was a half Point per game guy in the NHL in the A games that he was up he scored three goals on that power play and then went down to the American League well if the guson thing is not working out and it’s not maybe Casey could be another angle you could take for that and I don’t think he would be as expensive as those other like top 10 picks that we just mentioned at the top of this so those are four names that are all young guys that are all forward-looking like long-term ads most of them are not really Detroit’s type I think bym and Urich are I guess but but zis and and Casey would be departures from how they’ve they’ve gone at this but maybe it’s time to try something out of that same profile and and get a guy that can give you a spark now and still be part of a long-term plan so those are just four names that came to mind for me yeah with the overarching theme of what this season’s G to likely be and the focus is at Max is again 100% right in that the eye has to be towards the future not only with the current roster but yeah like expanding Beyond it where possible because the one thing Max didn’t touch on is how many guys on the current roster right now if this season continues the way it is are gone by the trade deadline Patrick Kane might be one of those guys and if you get a Trevor zagis in there’s your internal replacement right there I was screwing around where I was just like all right here’s where each Red Wings prospect that is likely to be relevant in the future probably needs to slot for the Red Wings to be competitive in four or five years and then Pon did a much better Deep dive than the garbage I threw it there but the general consensus we both came away with was the foundation’s really set like they have a lot of good players who project very easily into the lineup without having to take on too big of a role but then see these two big gigantic gaps in scoring in the top six and you’re like all right that still needs to be worked out one top four defenseman probably still needed there’s nothing that says you can’t go get those now right and you have such a glut of prospects and piics you can expend again we used maybe five six actual prospects in this system when they have probably 10 to 12 guys who could play regular NHL minutes other teams could use that as well if you want to move a you know pick a prospect a b-level prospect an A minus Prospect to go get a zis to go get a EUR check to go get a Sheamus Casey would probably be the tippy top of my list if Max is right and there’s a chance he’s on the Block you have to jump on that and Vegas and you know who I also give credit to on this one right now I think they’re a little behind the boat but St Louis be aggressive if you’re in a spot you don’t like I don’t want to hear this garbage trades are hard right look at the NBA look at all these other leagues you need a player cool we just gave up half our future but look at what we Acquired and all of a sudden we’re good Vegas had almost no prospects after being an expansion team and then they wanton a Stanley Cup like understand it that was a fluke where they got really good really fast and that can’t ever be expected to be replicated in such a fashion but what they did prove is a aggressive trades hires whatever you want to call it it can work and the Red Wings have this phenomenal Foundation of young players who you can project into the lineup really comfortably and you have so many of them you can definitely spare some so for me the worst case scenario this year is they sit tight they just ride it out yeah it’s not a playoff year we’ll just ride the roster till the end of the year miss the playoffs by eight points we’ll pick ninth overall again or something like that and it is what it is now obviously to where they are a ninth overall pick is very valuable to the Red Wings I understand that and that first round pick is probably not one of the pieces they should be moving out right now but man some creativity is going to be needed not only to make this season at least tolerable but to add on to the Future you wouldn’t give up a first rounder right next for zis for for any of them I mean it’s it’s a first round pick in a year that you could be picking top seven yeah this this first rounder I to me it would be damn near Untouchable unless you’re getting a proven star if the Leafs come to us hey uh we’re not riding it out with Marner we’re going to get something before he leaves him for agency you can negotiate with him if you get an extension yeah I’ll get up give up ninth overall for Mitch Marner all day but I’m going to call that unlikely so would say a top 10 pick’s borderline untouchable right now you could protect it I will say teams will will will be like well I want a lottery slot here because we see how this draft is going but you could always protect it and just to add to the other end of this I understand what you’re saying in terms of be aggressive and and do things for the future that not necessarily just in terms of acquiring players I agree with you inherently Max I think a roster move is the right thing to do CU at some point you need to be Vegas style aggressive you need to be if St Louis is going to do it whatever but you probably have four goalies right now if you’re the Red Wings who have value you have talbet who if he keeps doing this some team is going to come and offer a lot if the circumstance is right you have Alex lion who’s proven that he can be extremely valuable and he it’s not like he’s been bad this year he’s just had some bad games you have kosa and Augustine who are obviously Premier prospects especially kosa so you want to be careful before you deal those because that’s your future as well but Detroit is pretty well positioned to maybe do a little sell if they are riding off the season and the beauty of things being so tight is you don’t have to do that early you could do that later on closer to the deadline I don’t even know if it’s mini I mean mini in the sense that they don’t have that many guys to move compared to some previous years but like yeah Alex Lion at 900k on an expiring deal that has real value in the NHL go look around at the number of teams that need goal tending right now how bet does Colorado need a goalie how bet does Carolina need a goalie right now right like and he’s got the the dream scenario of being a guy who has gotten hot and proven he can take teams on his back a little bit if you need him to he’s cheap like he’s veteran he’s going to fit into any room in the league like he’s a really good dude and and he’s not going to be expecting the world right he’s he’s been like a journeyman backup basically who has proven the last couple years that he can give you really really good hockey so I think Lion’s like a pretty valuable asset he’s not g give you a first round pick but I think he’s a pretty valuable asset here and whenever that kind of happens that is an obvious move and especially if it if it starts to go like really South and it is going toward like the tank ofon kind of uh Direction well taking a pretty good goalie out of your lineup is historically the single best way to accomplish that without ruining your entire kind of franchise Carolina is perfect example Freddy Anderson’s out six to8 weeks they might play it safe because they know he’s coming back but if you have a team in a circumstance like that willing to pay right now there’s no guarantee you get the same return at the trade deadline so you got to do it and again the Red Wings have hoo and Jack Campbell down in Grand Rapids right now both I’m not going to say good sobody listen to what I’m saying not good but capable NHL backups you’re not completely sewered if you get that value now versus waiting another 3 four months when the price might go up price might go down who knows but it’s just how long is it going to take the Red Wings to recognize what this season is going to be will be a big question in my mind for the foreseeable future I think their eyes work as well as ours do though right like I mean there’s a there’s a I don’t know exactly what to call this but there’s there’s kind of this thing in in athletes and competitors I don’t know if it’s like a competitor Spirit or whatever but to get to where they’ve gotten to they’ve had people tell them oh look at the percentages their whole life and guess what they always beat the percentages so I’m I I know that that is a real thing I think they’ve seen a lot of hockey and they know what they’re looking at just as well as we do yeah also to the point of Carolina just to out back didn’t kotov also get injured in overtime last night too so Carolina could really be looking here but I agree Max it’s like it’s the player’s job to always want and have this illogical almost inhuman drive to succeed whether you’re in an individual sport or in the NHL it’s their job to go out there and want to win every night and not to listen to the stupid Talking Heads on this podcast like that that’s just the reality of it Detroit has some decisions to make and and the timing of it I think is going to be the biggest question of this because like we said before could be now could be later gold hending could shake it up in a big way but it also could be a roster move and then one last thing before we go to break here to make it clear I do think any of these roster moves that we talked about before where you mentioned Max like go try something with one of these young defenseman or try with zis it could change the script of the season and get it more close to to what it was last year last year they weren’t World beaters last year at points they still sucked but last year you could see a team who could be the 15th or 16th best team in the playoffs and that was justifiable and it wasn’t insane and I don’t think you can say the same thing about this season so one better right shot defenseman one you know better offensive piece that lets you slot guys more appropriately one move can get this team back into contention not domination but contention is not out of the question here’s a fun hypothetical for you on that point just real real quick if we’re going to go down the crazy trade scenarios I’m I’m not going to do hypotheticals but what do you think the trade value difference would be on a Patrick gain versus a Trevor zis like how close could you get of just taking the assets you get from Kane and dumping them to Anaheim for Trevor secret it’s at least double I think it’s at least double right like Kane’s on the one-year deal the the number is similar I think the production actually favors Kane right now he’s got the more track record but the team control for Z would be more significant it’s at least double it might be triple but I don’t know something to think about okay we are going to go to break to hear from the sponsors of the wind wheel podcast more to come after [Music] this there is nothing that compares to watching hockey live it’s not just about being closer to the action it’s hearing the sounds of the game feeling the big hits along the boards I personally will never forget how electric it was to be in the crowd for the last playoff win at the Joe game time has a new feature called Game Time picks that makes getting tickets to games or whatever concert or show you want to go to even easier I went on the 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it’s a reliable beer and it’s great to have in your hand when celebrating a goal so head to the link in the description of this episode or the one you see on your screen to find lebat and stores near you today you must be 21 or older and as always enjoy [Music] responsibly welcome back there’s been a lot made on the show especially of what are the Red Wings going to do anywhere in this team in this organization and a big part of that has been coaching is this it for Dereck lone is he going to be swapped out by Steve Eisman is he going to stay is it accepting that you know the roster that was given to him wasn’t good enough to succeed is it accepting that but also saying that the team needs to be better all of that has been a conversation and I do think justifiably and when Jim Montgomery was fired by the Boston Bruins he had north of a 700 points percentage I think it was whatever that exact stat is everyone in the hockey world went oh and it’s gone Jim Montgomery almost immediately hired by the St Louis Blues who moved on from head coach Drew Bannister after a shade over 20 games games as head coach in that organization and that was the one scenario where you were like yeah if it was going to be St Louis then no one else stood a chance because obviously he had ties to the team he has family ties to the area believe might live there part-time or family live in any case if St Louis wanted him he was going to go a 5-year contract to it just made a ton of sense for him I want to say it made a ton of sense for St Louis they actually had to take a really bold step there and they may be rewarded for it because I do think Montgomery is a great Coach Sucks for Bannister but still the prime target and a lot of people’s minds is now off the board does that change anything for you if you’re a Red Wings fan in the Red Wings or is this just kind of what was most expected this was what was most expected I think we even referenced it we were talking about Montgomery to Detroit of he’s probably not going to prefer Detroit versus some of the other options out there nobody’s surprised I have question about the blu’s ultimate plan like they’ve got a very mediocre Prospect pool with a very mediocre team but the one thing and we talked about it before the break that I respect the hell of what they’re doing is they’re being aggressive they went and they did the offer sheets they’ve made some trades they seen an upgrade at coach available and went this will make us better we’re going to do it sorry Drew banister it is completely unfair to him but that’s the world this is the Vegas style of managing an NHL team we don’t like where we’re at we are going to improve any chance we get to improve again ultimate plan with St Louis aside I like the approach they’re taking and more teams especially Detroit need to follow suit so now what does Detroit do because nothing really changed over they they had the exciting win late against the Islanders and you know kind of nothing against Boston and everyone was pumped up against the Islanders game because that was pavl datsuk night and that was all well and good but this team is still the same team that went on that West Coast Road Trip they’re still the same team they’ve been all year and there’s kind of the sense of well if they were going to do something it kind of feels like they were going to do it by now unless you’re going by what Brad mentioned last episode of maybe it’s just you’re waiting for a more convenient scheduling break but knowing the kind of slow methodical really intentional approach that Steve Eisman and the Detroit Red Wings like to take my mind is they’re probably even if they are thinking of making changes they’re probably going to hang on for a while longer and I by that I mean the off season if they’re going to do it which isn’t even a guarantee yeah I don’t know what what they’re you know thinking on this one but I I do tend to agree like I think if if you were in a rush to do something if you felt like there was an imminent reason to do it I think it would have happened after the West Coast trip the fact that it didn’t then I think that was the most obvious time that like okay if you feel like there’s a problem here that you need to change in season I don’t know what you are going to wait to see in addition to that and if you didn’t think so after that then I don’t you know I I just I agree I don’t think that that there’s like some okay well he needs to pass this test and then it’s this or whatever like it it kind of feels like that was a early litmus on what their approach is going to be here and I’m I’m sure they probably realize the same thing that we do which is that the roster is a big part of this too and that there’s probably not some obvious option obviously any situation can get get to a place where you just feel like you have to do something I don’t really see that right now do you guys certainly with the Outlook yeah it’s it’s about upgrades is there a definitive upgrade out there right now in my opinion I don’t see one quinnville sure but with that baggage who knows how that would go I’m not sold on mlen I’m not sold on Golan I see advantages to both of them I struggled to see the Red Wings going with another firsttime head coach so you know Carl’s out there but do I see them go on that route probably not you’re not doing that in season he’s the world junior coach why would he leave Denver I think they’re undefeated last I knew like that’s not happening in season anyway exactly he’s also a Derek lone mentee by the way like so is are you gonna do you think you’re going to be able to lure him by being like Hey we’re gonna make this change I don’t think that’s how that works no and even Dan Watson you know the Griffins are on a run hot right now that’s been going on for a good long while you don’t want to mess with that so and again the longer I look at this the less I blame lone I think and I was definitely guilty of this no more than a few weeks ago but the boring style of hockey really makes it hard to be happy with the coaching but when you look at the roster you go what else is he going to do I do have questions with about with some motivation techniques the Red Wings do look a little sleepy even for their low event style and you know the give a damn meter seems to be pretty low some games but by and large he’s got this awful defense being capable I’m not going to say good again but capable at five on five and their systematic defense there’s not enough talent to score at five on five here but the power play is running hot the PK obviously huge criticism but yeah I I don’t think he’s doing a perfect job but is there an obvious upgrade out there right now I don’t see one at least not without a lot of baggage no I think what people I you know my feelings on coaching changes I think that people do them right now mainly because they just want to seem like they’re doing something and it definitely seems like something to do but I agree like I If if there was like two or three things that were obvious it’s like he’s not doing this and he’s not doing this and he’s not doing this then okay like that’s the basis for a coaching change I don’t see a single thing of like that I like people saying he’s still playing shirat and Petri okay so should he play Eric gusf in there should I mean I I I know people want to see Johanson there but you’re saying that the answer to the Red Wings problems this year is a rookie NHL defenseman who has taken like 20 defensive Zone starts the entire season that’s going to be your 20 minute and answer next to Ben shat he might get there I like Johanson is I think he’s a smart player but he’s not ready for that right now they don’t have an obvious answer to that that is the roster and that’s I’ve been hammering this I’m sure people are sick of it but it is a roster problem there anyone who would be behind that bench right now would walk into the roster on day one and go what can we do different I got nothing right like I I mean I’m not saying that they would have no ideas to try but I think lone is still trying ideas it’s just that there’s no good answer to the way the roster is constructed right now is what I see just very quickly aside I I want to get back to the coaching conversation and it’s probably something we should have talked about before because Johansson was pulled out of the lineup for Justin Hall and to me I see that as completely fine like I have no problem with pulling Joan out of the lineup if you’re viewing him as having some rookie mistakes or you know he has nerves I think is how lone characterized it that comes with being a rookie in the NHL and to me I see those things like I don’t think Joe Hansson is way worse than the Red Wings worst options no they have veterans who are out there and playing some atrocious hockey on defense like we’ve talked a lot at length about how bad it’s been especially on the right side and to me it’s like just because the veteran options are worse doesn’t mean you don’t take the most appropriate measures that you think should be taken for Johansson’s development I think we’ve been kind of disillusioned by cider’s Ascension and Edinson Ascension and those are fantastic players and their exceptions not the rules so to me is if you have a rookie in Johansson who you think needs a Press Box to watch the game a little bit we’re still you know AAR of the way into the season or whatever it’s still early so pull them out from time to time I don’t always agree with the the notion of pulling him out but I don’t think it’s this like massive indictment that they’re pulling him out am I off in that or where are you guys at well no I think we all expected Johansson to play like 40 games this season and what does a 40 Game season look like it looks like one game in one game out for or four games in three games out and one game in two games out for a long stretch that’s just the way it goes like you know I think that’s what we all expected was that that was the kind of season he was in for we might have even expected less than that because they started the season with oi mat also in the fold right so yeah no I I I am not surprised or scandalized by that decision I I don’t even think like I I know Ryan you said like there’s the play of the veterans like I think atrocious is even like a little strong there it’s just there’s a bunch of guys who are NHL third pair number six defenseman being asked you know one of them has to play on the second pair and you know the other guys are are trying like there there have been moments of that certainly some big mistakes but like I think there’s just it’s a slotting issue and and we’ve had this conversation at different points about the Red Wings in the at Center in the past right like when fron neelen was your number two Center well it’s not like France neelon needed to be out of the NHL immediately in 2018 or whatever but it was just he was your second line Center and that was never going to work out like it’s the league is too good to ask to overs slot like that on a consistent basis and not get those results and so yeah I think Johansson would be one of the many examples of guys who would be overs slotted in that pair sometimes he looks overs slotted on the third pair even most of the time I don’t think that’s the case like I think the underlying numbers will tell you that but there are shifts and if you go and watch them if you are honest with yourself you will see those shft you will see these moments that lone is talking about and it is not that hard to find yeah it’s a rotation you know we talked about it like one of the discourses I see online a lot right now is the well he’s sitting the rookie but where’s the accountability to the veterans outside of cider and edenson I’m pretty sure shot’s the only one who hasn’t sat for a game Petri I think it was only one or two games but still your second pair of D is getting put in the Press Box for a night Leone sees it Hall has missed a bunch of games gson has been out a bunch of games they’re all being held accountable equally I’m okay with this you have and again Max phrased it properly four number six defensemen who have to play every night so if you start rotating the number six defenseman okay that’s fine would I prefer Joe Hanson to play over these guys because he still got some upside again circles back to the I’d rather play the young guys who might be bad versus the old guys who are bad but if they’re approaching this from a he’s having a rough stretch let’s give him a reset watch the games he maybe learn something maybe see something you didn’t notice before whatever it is sure I’m fine with it now if he ends up playing 30 Games The Narrative changes we have a little more right to complain cuz again the competition he’s fighting for spots with but everybody outside of three guys has been sitting I’m okay with the rotation as as long as the balance is proper and what I’d say is he doesn’t have a special teams role right so Hall Petri both play on the penalty kill and Guston plays on the power play like Johansson doesn’t have a special teams fit so if someone’s out he’s automatically the number one candidate to be out and if he’s getting in it’s the young Player thing winning out on a lot of cases right when it’s when it when he’s playing you know tough right like when he’s playing well I think it’s just yeah okay let’s continue let’s keep the confidence going whatever the underlying number say he’s been okay right but it’s it’s you have to look at the Sheltering that’s taking place there him and guson both are getting sheltered to a tremendous level right and you can that’s the coaches trying to work with what they have and say okay well then we just have to start them in the ozone as much as possible yada yada right play the matchups try to give them the matchups that they can win try not to ask these two small Puck mover types to ever go against somebody named kachuck for the entire season or anyone of similar Dimensions to them right so they’re they’re trying to do that and I I think the Special Teams is probably costing him a little bit but right now they’re 20 games in he’s played 10 quick math that tells me he’s going to play 41 games this season so it’s been exactly what we all expected okay I know I said we’d get back to the coaching conversation but I think there’s going to be plenty of that in in the days and weeks to come why don’t we jump into some quick Red Wings notes here before we get into max your segment on the Red Wings and the salary cap I just wanted to acknowledge Amad Lombardi pulling those moves that he did with the Griffin on a night in a week weend that was dedicated to pavl datsuk was cool as hell my worst nightmare as a defenseman is to be that guy who crossed his own ankles over four times and went what looked like face first into the boards just completely stole that guy’s Soul took a puck off another player’s stick you know put the puck in like amadas Lombardi is quickly reminding folks and he he doesn’t do this too far between like he’s he’s kind of always been on it especially since what we saw in training camp that he is potentially one of those First Mid or late round steals from the Red Wings EMT finny you know late late late round steal as well but chanov who we’ve talked about before is really kind of ramping up and showing off how much talent he has and he’s not you know coming over here to Detroit with a notion of being a one-dimensional player either if he does end up in the states like this is a guy who’s showing more and more to his game and I’m not going to get ahead of myself there’s been a lot of superlatives thrown around about Bell nikov but he’s a guy who could be potentially you know a weapon and not just a forgettable depth piece so the Red Wings future we’ve done some stuff on the previous episodes and we’re going to do more in the coming episodes but I just an open reminder things are going nicely for the Red Wings on that front here’s a question so so bergren in his last shl year was a similar deal where people would send me the elite prospects alltime leader board of you 22 and you know there he was top two or three Better or Worse Buton the COV verburg I personally in terms of talent hold the KHL in higher regard than the shl so I’d say what he’s doing is more impressive he’s also on a not strong KHL team like so he’s got to do a lot of the heavy lifting on that team which also comes with more ice time which is going to reflect in more points so that’s probably worth noting but the thing the specific thing that gets me excited about Buel nikov a little more so than Barren is the entire time Barren was coming up we knew what he was he was a playmaker small Shifty Winger that’s what he was that’s what he was good at that’s where he got his success for the last 2 three years ever since the Red Wings drafted buchelnikov we’ve watched this guy and go wow this guy is a sniper yeah he’s small he’s undersized he’s got some a lot of flaws in his game but man you put him in that one spot in the ozone and he can rip it so he could be a specialist his assist numbers have skyrocketed this year he has added this playmaking Dimension that I don’t think even the biggest buchelnikov Believers thought he had 6 months ago and all of a sudden you’re going if this isn’t a one dimensional guy who’s last I check third in the entire KHL in scoring and on Pace to shatter a lot of u22 Records there that’s a GameChanger because again we talk about prospects this is the projection unless something changes something changed for buchelnikov he added something that wasn’t part of his repertoire and it looks like not only is it there it’s at a damn near Elite level for the league he’s playing in so I’m more excited about Buel nikov now than I was for Barren then also unlike Barren Bell n’s not coming off major injuries to the point where he almost lost an entire year of development so I’m not saying Buel nikov is going to come in and be Kil capriso or a you know top six game changer but he might be which is not something I was saying you know even 3 months ago so it it’s an exciting development and yeah it’s it’s worth mentioning and also getting back to the point where Ryan was talking about banov and Lombardi and Finny the beauty of late round picks you only need one of them to hit and it’s all worthwhile because you don’t expect anything out of the first round it’s all gravy when it happens so the fact the Red Wings have three maybe four guys you’re talking about like that right now is exciting because they’re not all going to hit but if one or two do it changes Outlook of this team yes and frankly like I’m not even trying to like bring on in the parade with bov like if he is burger and that’s already a huge that’s a success right if you get an NHL player in the second round you’ve you’ve you’ve hit right like it’s the the percentages say it’s like a quarter to a third is is what your odds are in the second round so getting one is a win like I’m I’m not trying to r on that parade and if you have one guy outside the first round every year the reality is that’s a win for the draft you want your first rounder to hit and you want one outside the first round to hit every every year and that’s good and I know people are going to say Well it hasn’t happened very much yet and it’s in year six well the timeline for outside the first round is about four or five years so the fact that Johansson is here now is actually right on schedule for how that goes I know that’s annoying it takes forever in hockey compared to football it’s probably more most comparable to like the baseball timeline and in some cases it’s even longer so that’s a bummer for rebuilding teams it’s why it’s so painful to rebuild it’s why that famous 10-year rebuild comp got said and lo and behold that’s looks like what what the truth is so okay Max we were talking pre-show about some work you’ve been doing on the Detroit Red Wings and the upcoming salary cap changes which you know the numbers aren’t hammered out and it’s going to depend a lot on what the league and the Players Association decide on the upcoming cap but we know for sure it’s going to go up and the question isn’t whether it’s a little or a lot it’s whether it’s a lot or a lot a lot so max your official good in the room segment today bring us in yeah so Elliott Freeman had a really good episode on his podcast 32 thoughts last week talking about this salary cap topic and the expectation has been that the cap which went up pretty big this past year $4.5 million I believe from 83 and half to 88 the expectation was for it to go up roughly the same amount next year to 92 92.5 area and Elliot had a report that was not like a hard report this is happening but just on the idea that it’s possible that the cap could actually go up even more than that next year to 95 for a reason and the reason for that is as revenues have caught up post pandemic it looks like we’re going to be in a place that the cap in the next two or three years could get to around the hundred million territory and it’s for the players and the owners sake advantageous for some escro reasons that like Elliot can lay out better than I did go go find his podcast and he’ll explain it he takes like 10 minutes and explains the mechanisms here with how it works basically it’s a 50/50 split between the owners and the players with some exception if if it goes over if revenues exceed what that projection is for the 50-50 split the 50 is the salary cap on the players side of things and the owner 50 is their take if you go over then in either direction either the players can owe the owners or the owners can owe the players ideally the owners probably don’t want to owe the players money so you just raise a salary cap right so rather than have a huge salary cap junk is the long and short of of what this explanation was there could be some quote unquote smoothing of the cap which would mean bigger increases to the cap than expected that takes us to a place where when the CBA ends before the 2026 season it’s at least sounds possible this is me interpreting what what Elliot was saying that the cap could be at like $100 million two seasons from now which would be $12 million more than it is now we don’t know that that’s going to happen but it at least sounds possible the cap does tend to go up by about $4 million a year in a healthy NHL environment which we did not have for a long time because of covid so I just was running some math because I was curious like what does this mean for a team like the Red Wings that just in a very timely fashion locked up its three most important cornerstones to long-term deals right Dylan Lin is under contract through 2031 at an $8.7 million cap hit Lucas Raymond obviously just signed an 8-year deal at the start of this season at 8.07 five million Mor cider signed a seven-year deal at the start of this season at 8.55 million his will expire the same year as lens Raymond will be one year after there so I just wanted to know you know what does this do for the Red Wings position wise to take advantage of this potentially raised salary cap because they don’t have that many commitments on the books in the 2026 27 season they’ve got those three players that I’ve just said the last year of Alex to Bret at 7.875 the last year of Andrew cop at 5.625 and then two years left each of Comer and rasmon those are the only non-c commits they have for That season the total according to cap wages for that I think is just over $47 million so that would leave you with like $52 million a cap space right obviously that money can go a long way contract numbers are going to go up it’s one reason why I think people shouldn’t be that panicked about even like the confer number because you see what like Chandler Stevenson and Alex venberg got I think you’re perfectly happy to have JT Comer at 5.1 considering where that type of Center is going to go in the coming years but the real value is in the deals that you already have done on those Stars so when Lin signed his deal he signed it at what was at the time 10.4% of the cap on a $100 million salary cap that would now become 8.7% which if you did that on just this year’s cap which is not the cap that Larin signed it at I’m talking about it what his effective salary on $100 million cap would be for this year you’re at 7.65 million and if I told you you had Dyan Larin at 7.65 million you’re doing a happy dance right gets even better for the other guys because their numbers are lower Lucas Raymond 7.1 is the equivalent of what his number would be on a 100 million cap and again we’re talking a couple years down the road two maybe three but that’s still on the first half of all three of these contracts cider again 7.5 something like that so where this is going is a those long-term deals Rings decided to pay out to these guys all look like they’re in a position to pay off in a big way if this cap does indeed go up to the level that it seems very likely within whether whether it happens in the smoothing out way that Elliot laid out on his podcast which again I would encourage you guys to go listen to or whether it’s just kind of the natural Arc of things and there’s kind of an NBA like free-for-all I don’t know if you guys remember a few years ago when every NBA player suddenly got an insane deal there is the potential for something like that to happen if they don’t do do this smoothing so at some point in the next two or 3 years I think it’s it’s inevitable we’re going to get a $100 million cap just reading between the lines of this and at that point the Red Wings have a couple of of Avenues in play for them a yes you got to extend your current talent and get good deals done on guys like Edinson guys like Casper guys like Daniels and who you expect to be part of the fold but B it does put in play the answer to this question of where the reding is going to get a star from obviously you don’t want to have to do that through free agency but whether it’s free agency or trade they are going to have the flex ility and the money to put a huge offer in front of somebody because of how good the savings that they’re going to have on percent a cap on guys like Raymond cider and Lin that’s a ton of word salad I need to take a breath but does that all make sense does that you picking up what I’m putting down here yeah we had conversations about this months ago when these contracts were signed which was they came in at a good number longterm you got your core three pieces for a good long while at at the time we thought was decent value contracts we were excited we’re like you can work with this so the new information about how much more the cap could go up you know it’s it’s a league of Market efficiencies and inefficiencies if you’re making all these savings here if you wanted to go again because we bring up his name all the time a hypothetical offer to Mitch Marner is Mitch Marner worth $14 million no probably not can you now offer Mitch Marner $14 million to get get them away from all the other suitors yes you can because this is where the balance comes in you have these glaring holes of top six Superstar forwards that you are going to need here’s the money for it as long as you’re responsible down the lineup because it’s you know we talk about percentage of cap in negotiations all the time a fourth line player that’s making 1.5 mil with the cap increase that percentage doesn’t bring him up to 3 mil it brings him up to like 1.7 1.8 so as long as you’re not overreacting in that section of your roster you can get greedy you can go big game hunting you can overpay for the one thing this team is desperately lacking for its future again I’m using Marner as the hypothetical go through the next couple years for agents pick out whoever you want but you can be aggressive because with where the Red Wings are picking in all likelihood in the next few drafts it’s not coming from the draft players like this do not come available and trade all that often you’re probably going to have to overpay somewhere along the line to fill these gaps in your future roster we talk about how unlucky the Red Wings got in their rebuild they no teams Fallen further in the draft lottery than them the years they were picking High wasn’t the crazy strong drafts they got their Three core pieces locked up right before this information became publicly available sure behind the scenes they probably had some inkling of it but this is this could be the break this was the luck you have your three most important players got locked up right before everybody found out how much more money everybody could make so it’s not the biggest break like you know a first overall pick would be but it’s something and you have to build off of it and you have to capitalize off of it because it’s the core tenant to being a contender in the future it’s kind of the equivalent of it’s not quite the same as having what the M McKinnon contract was for for Colorado because you don’t have a player of that level but you have three players that are like a step down from that and all of them are giving you a really good value contract or look like they’re about to be giving you a really valuable contract when this starts to kick in assuming that it does yeah and I think Brad did a great point there of pointing out that you know the Red Wings got no luck and you can’t in in this league that is so gridlocked as you mentioned before Max as well it is so hard to get your way out of that and Detroit basically put in the hard work to maximize their gains which has you know had sum turn in terms of cider and Raymond lighting it up now and Dylan lens’s your best player and your captain etc etc but has it led to the playoffs no but that Foundation is now important because you’re right Max they now have their core or a lot of it and you’re adding Edinson into that now as well and when Edinson signs his contract they’re going to point to ciders as a ceiling so if Edinson goes off like that’s going to help them as well they have not just really good contracts like Brad said these can now be fantastic I don’t like project I’m not brave enough I should say of projecting out really far but you know the work that you two have done recently to demonstrate you know what do the Red Wings have to do in the future let’s just say what is their biggest need to add it’s Superstar Talent at forward that’s what they need in their top six especially it doesn’t yeah number two Center or number one Center potentially would be amazing but just some kind of Superstar or high high highend level Talent at forward you have cider you have Edinson sandine pel is looking good it’s not a guaranteed but if he pans out what do you have to buy in free agency on defense a top four left pair d That’s not so many teams are in way worse position than that and you can fill out your your bottom pair just from your own system or free agency whatever you can now you have that infinite money glitch you have that piece of Leverage that other teams got by way of winning a draft lottery that got by way of you know being gifted something through the expansion draft that Detroit has just never had so I think this is genuinely the biggest hidden story not just in the NHL but specifically to the Red Wings and it’s just it’s not manifested yet but you can see it coming from a mile away it’s already looming large and this is Detroit’s way out if all goes well it doesn’t happen automatically you don’t just push some buttons and it happens procedurally Detroit has to be almost surgical in their execution of this but there’s a way out of this where we’re looking back and laughing at ourselves forever wondering about cops contract for example well and especially like you have the complimentary guys coming right like the like the guys they’ve drafted the Danielson the Bren Sig knards I really like Max plant like I I I think there’s something there I think these guys coming up on those contracts merer would be another example can be those cheap buffers that allow you to really go in on that and they can be top nine pieces on certainly for the first couple years of their contracts and some of those contracts have already started like merer for example but some of them have not like plan hasn’t even signed danielson’s still slide eligible bran sigard still slide eligible you could get to that and still have two years on entry level for some of these guys right like that’s a great spot to be in because you have these players that can play up up in your lineup in in a way that I think you would be looking for if you if you were the Blackhawks and you had your Connor Bard for example they’re going to spend the next few years assembling their complimentary guys you pretty much have your complimentary guys they’re marinating a little bit but they’re going to be here and you’re going to need what you need is a star and now here is the pathway to it it’s not a given like you said Ryan like you know we talked about Leon dry Sidle a little bit this summer and poof he went away right you could do the same thing with Mitch Marner you do the same thing with Miko ranton and that’s one another reason why I think it’s worth taking that Dart thr on Trevor zeris because just in case he is that superstar that he looked like he might be in his rookie year or at least like a Raymond level player yeah I would want to bring him in into the organization quickly before that gets discovered and you’re you’re paying up and and whatever right it if if someone like that is available now I think you go do it but you’re right the needs are pretty defined you need probably another like legit scoring Center if Danielson doesn’t end up becoming that like 60 plus Point guy which I think is possible but you just don’t know and it’s worth finding out I think you probably need like a really strong probably Topline Wing who’s a little more dimensional like I don’t think you’re just looking for a scorer here I think you know perfect world is obviously like a Brady kachuck or something like that but it’s just someone who has a little more Dimension than just a shot or just a great passer and you need a top four left D and that’s a lot we just listed some really valuable pieces but you have the money to do it and with a draft pick this year may check off one of those it’s the pathway is there and I think that the the way that this salary cap sounds like it could Trend I think should be maybe the most reassuring thing you hear on this podcast today because it tells you that that all you know all important so hard to find Pathway to a star might actually be opening up for the Red Wings one thing I’ll add to this is this kind of pushes me personally I’m not saying everyone but I have a a bad habit of trying to make the perfect rebuild in my head of this is the exact time you do it and this is the exact amount that you should spend and you know if that’s not ideal you don’t go for it because you don’t want to waste a single dollar what we have seen time and time again in the NHL and it’s been a theme of this episode is bold teams who take risks and just seize a moment succeed by and large not every time there’s going to be failures but bold teams are often rewarded so if you have an opportunity to acquire acire that star talent but the money’s not just quite there yet or you have to give up a premium piece or it’s before it makes a contract situation difficult I’m I’m firmly in the belief now and I didn’t used to be of do whatever it takes if it costs more if it hurts a little bit more if it pisses off the fans a bit more make the tough move trade for that guy and you know not if you think he’s going to leave in free agency let’s not be stupid but if you think in those conversations that definitely don’t happen with agents that he would want to stay and he likes what’s happening in Detroit right go on it and I mean what you said max with zis I mean if there’s a chance with you know a Marner type let’s say Ranson and changes his mind and hates Colorado or sees you know the number 13 somewhere else like you can do this and if you have to go a bit early and spend a little bit more and you know just kind of take a little bit of a bitter taste in your mouth a little bit take the pain because you if you wait for a perfect rebuild you’re just GNA end up being the Buffalo Sabers yeah well said like you know and I think the Buffalo Sabers are a team that over the years has kind of given up on those kind of guys right before it seems like it might have gone well they who knows it’s it’s all what if but like they’re the team that traded Ryan O’Reilly the St Louis Blues he wins a Stanley Cup right away they’re the team that traded Jack eel away to the Vegas golden knights he wins the Stanley Cup right away they’re the team that traded Sam rard to the Florida Panthers he wins the Stanley Cup right away wow I just gained a ton of sympathy for Buffalo fans as we as I talk for those last 15 seconds but like that’s what and those are the kind of players that we kind of talked about on this maybe not quite as established like Z is not as established as those guys but when you see those those Avenues come available my bad habit is dismissing guys who’s like yeah but she they haven’t won yet so they’re probably not going to win right or they they haven’t popped off it so they’re probably not going to pop off I did that with Martin NIS this summer oops like that guy’s going crazy every night and I was like yeah he’s had 60 points more than 53 points one time it’s all hype oops it’s not just hype now like he looks like a star scorer so yeah I I just think you have to explore those opportunities position yourself take some chances I know there have been some fans that have that have said that in past years in the draft I’ve generally been of the mind that you need to get the pick right before you start just trying to fantasize about the the perfect possibility but this was the first draft that I thought there was kind of an argument different ways I think BR siger looks like a good pick I think Michael ha looks like he would have been a good pick you can kind of go both ways on that one but I do think the Red Wings are now at the point where it’s try to find that star try to find that star forward try to find that probably that above all but I do think I I still think a top four left D would be a really good thing to add or even right d if you needed to but it’s find that star at this point and and don’t give up on one of your young guys I guess is the other lesson before moving on to NHL news something I want to cap this off with is I we’ve had long stretches on the show where the Red Wings have looked bad and you know the the notion of Hope had been talked about so long and it felt worn out and we didn’t try to conjure up hope or anything out of anywhere like we don’t we never want to be in the business of just trying to make people feel happier promis just because it makes people feel happier and they’re more likely to listen like I know it’s oh we tell it like it is but genuinely like we only want to kind of communicate things that we genuinely believe in and so it’s really hard to kind of see for a lot of fans any kind of light at the end of the tunnel and how long is the tunnel with how bad the Red Wings are this season but this topic that Max has brought up today and what we’ve talked about for the last however many minutes here genuinely do believe in it like this is this is the road and you can have all of the very fair qualms of how long it’s taken and what the road has been to get here and that’s all valid and we’ve talked about that but I I want to say like this isn’t you know false hope or just to say like you know next year TM like year the Leafs or or Ferrari and F1 like this is that’s the path and in a league where things are slow to change and where the Red Wings have had less than zero luck like this is actually a win potentially a massive win for them and it won’t be next year and it may not be the year it may not actually kick in in 2026 but like it’s it’s the trajectory opening up like like your window now here is you have these great contracts that are on the books till at least 2031 and what Lin is going to be in 2031 probably isn’t the same as what he is today but I think still in 2026 2027 probably even 2028 he’s still a really impactful player and I think the goal at this point has to be give yourself the best and this is goes right to what Pon wrote and what Brad was talking about earlier in the show like I think the path has to be look at where you’re situated for those seasons and try to find the star that can fit in and and help you kick it in there because that path does seem to your point Ryan like that’s where it’s it’s headed okay very quickly before overtime here we are going to jump into some NHL news actually just one very fast piece of NHL news Alexander ovin who it looked like he was going to bre break the goal scoring record by the time this episode was over he took that awkward collision with mcbaine and it was reported that he has a four to six week injury due to a broken left fibula so tough sorry to say this tough break for Obie in the capitals but thankfully not something that’s going to derail his whole season and I mean the NHL has to be thrilled that he’s going to be back this year so you might see that record broken yet and further to the freak of nature that is Alex avkin there are already reports he’s walking around without a walking boot and apparently he’s traveling with the team this week probably not playing but like it’s insane he broke his leg and he’s mobile already that’s man he is the phrase built different gets thrown around a little too much but I think he’s genuinely built different what’s that phrase about Russian machines yeah that blog is the most time that is the most timelessly named NHL blog I’ve ever seen Russia machine never break oh man okay we are going to jump into overtime on this episode of the wind wheel [Music] podcast we’re going to overtime overtime is brought to you by our patreon supporters again patreon.com wheel podcast if you want to support the show the bonus overtime episodes which record right after these main ones yes Max is on the bonus overtimes on good in the room episodes which he thoroughly enjoys the giveaways the two tickets to every Red Wings home game the Discord all of that and lots more so again patreon.com wied wheel podcast let’s take some questions I’m going to read two of them together here one from the Jack scientist he says Hey guys you’ve talked about the fre Agents from last year and their points leaving but I’m curious about the culture that left with them like Pan’s leadership and wallman’s Vibe how much do you think that plays into the slump this season slow does that affect our core development and the second question is from the gyms that says I listen to the perspective that the roster is the issue or the coach or the system but the biggest difference I see this year is The Vibes no energy no fun wman and Pon might not have been a 100 Point players but they brought the energy up in the room and you could see it translate on the ice who could the wings bring in to get the Vibes back so Vibes per 60 is the topic for these two questions and I think this is very real like I think that’s a Savvy question I agree you know like Robbie fabri would be another guy I think that fit that that mold of a guy that left this year and I think you know it’s left a little bit of a vacancy I think a visible vacancy for that team and I don’t know who I actually was having this conversation with somebody at dinner the other night like who are like of the upcoming free agents or whatever like who are The Vibes guys that that that you could bring in to do this and like I hate to keep going back to zis and I like this one’s a questionable one because I think there are some people that seem to kind of be rubbed the wrong way by his kind of aura or whatever but he does have that like light-hearted jokey thing that I think can be good for a room certainly there still have Christian Fischer who I think is a lot like that I think Alex lion can be a lot like that but but I think this is a really good point here that like when you when you let pan who everyone always made fun of for how loud he was go I think you kind of miss that loudness right now and I I think on the bench especially that’s a big deal what I’ve noticed and this is you know my old ass translating having to deal with the young kids at my work the biggest person Personalities in terms of you know if you want to call it the fun and games quotient is probably Raymond cider berren Edinson they’re all like these upbeat like you know we we’ve seen it when we were in Grand Rapids last year Edinson gets in a fight Barr’s bouncing around after in the room rocky rocky and keeping it light-hearted but they’re a different generation than a lot of that room and their type of humor their type of entertainment might not mesh with the you know over 30 crowd which again I’m the over 30 crowd I don’t understand half the references my employees make but like the Divide does exist whether I don’t think I’m not saying I don’t think the old guys are shunning the young guys or vice versa I think it’s just a generation gap and two different styles of humor two different styles of entertainment it could be an issue there because when you look at the older group in Detroit they’re great dudes but they’re like more your stoic professional type and Ron wasn’t that and he could have been the guy that you know was able to loosen up that other segment of the locker room this next question from 155 taters says what happened to Joe valeno it seemed like he was on track to be a steady 30p Point fourth line Center he had some decent hot streaks last season now he’s getting healthy scratched and seems irrelevant offensively so what do we make of Joey poison and his position and future on the Red Wings yeah I I still think there’s a certainly a future for Joe valeno like I yeah the offense probably hasn’t been there as much I think that’s true of the pretty much the whole team I think like when you’re no longer with guys like spraw with fabry obviously the offense goes away a little bit but he was a 28o center last year with 12 goals in 80 games right like that is basically a 30-point center and so it’s exactly what you described I don’t think that got you know that vanished in the middle of the night yeah he was scratched last couple games I do expect he’s going to be back in pretty quick here possibly as soon as Monday night and and we’ll see like what he’s able to bring there but yeah they’re going to want more offense there’s no doubt about that he probably needs to shoot the puck a little bit more which is probably true across the board of the Red Wings but I I would not be given up on Joe valeno yet I think there’s still a tremendous athlete in there and that’s a great foundation and at lower levels he’s shown enough offense that I think double digit goals are are still in there for him maybe not happen this year because we’re almost 20 games in or we are 20 games in now and he’s at one but I wouldn’t give up on him yet no this one here from Avery sloppy second says how much if any regret do you guys believe Raymond or cider have on not signing a bridge deal in light of this season’s start I I don’t know if you I don’t know if you characterize it as regret though because it might this would have been seen by agents and GMS in the team a mile out right so it could have been a sticking point from Eisman that he wasn’t going to go bridge I I don’t know that concretely but you have to imagine that would have been the team’s position at least for a little bit I mean if they didn’t know the salary cap rise was coming to this degree everybody knew the cap was going up but to this degree yeah they might have flipped the table when they saw that but again without hard numbers usually this type of information is floating around behind the scenes for a good amount of time before it gets to us idiots so I can’t imagine they were super shocked okay last question here and this one is Max bolman themed Max in your time covering the Red Wings for the athletic Detroit he says which Arenas have the best or your favorite setups in catering for the Press I am always fascinated at these questions because a are you g to like go do the Press catering at them and B uh that like none of them are like LCA is number one for the record like LCA is the best they have they have the best setup but like the sessions are better like almost everywhere right like LCA does have a Carving Station that would probably be pretty hard to find but they’re not you know like I there have been Arenas MSG I just go to the concession stand because I’d rather just do that right so I think people maybe have an idea that they’re really missing out on something with the Press meals when I I think if anything it may be backwards LCA possible exception because of just how much there is like there’s multiple Entre a pizza bar a in a Carving Station and chicken tenders and fries at every game but I I would say fans maybe overhype the Press meal slightly would be would be my take here as for what who they are I would so lca’s one like in Buffalo like they have a good meal but I would rather just eat wings on my way to the game when I’m in Buffalo rather than do a press meal there Vegas is as good Carolina usually does barbecue that’s pretty good those would be the first most obvious ones that come to mind like like I didn’t when I go to Toronto I try to avoid the Press meal like it’s just a it’s a pretty average layout of food like you would get anywhere but no I I like the the concession stands in a lot of places I think is the way to go I think the reason you get these questions is it’s just like an extension of how this organization treats people you know what I mean like who who are the cheap bastards and who are the ones that are actually trying to take care of the people coming into the building Fair Pittsburgh I was just in Pittsburgh Pittsburgh had a really good uh short rib it was really good but LCA is number one and I think if you talk to basketball people especially it’s like number one with like a triple bullet like so I guess if if we’re measuring organizations off that that that looks good on the Red Wings my least favorite is Anaheim sorry to say Anaheim listeners out there so you know how every once in a while I I’d say it happens maybe twice a year we’ll get a comment from someone on Twitter or whatever and they’re like you people making the big bucks in media are like implying that we’re some like Millionaires and we all laugh because like so firmly no it’s unbelievable but I am trying to find a way to spin this into believing that Max you’re like up there with a top hat and a monacle eating like a Michelin star meal writing up your your red wings beat reports every night we also pay for press meals I think that might be gets into this too like they’re they pay Max for the privilege of him dining there yes it’s extra six figures every night just in that’s not just to talk about the company car they send your house to bring you to the arena I’m doing the opposite of proper the M of press meals is is is an overhyped thing not to shatter anybody’s dream but uh it is okay we’re going to wrap up this episode of the wind wheel podcast and jump into our patreon exclusive overtime folks thank you all so very much for tuning 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