📅 Published on: 2024-12-03 19:52:38

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Joel Sherman is joined by former Rockies GM and MLB Network’s Dan O’Dowd who questions if it’s even in the Yankees best …

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hey one of the blessings I have is to do the show uh each week with my friend John hymon uh he had to do it the last few weeks without me because I was on vacation John is on vacation uh this week so another of my blessings is we both work at MLB Network and uh there are such smart people we do TV with there and two of them are going to join us on the show today um that will be Dano Dow is going to talk to us a lot about the current events of baseball notably Juan stto and what he thinks is up and how he thinks that might play out and Brian Kenny who’s a real expert on the Hall of Fame he hosts the Show for MLB Network every year he does the induction ceremony every year the ballot is out I’m a voter we’ll break down all of it we him and I will play hit and error at the end if you stick with us on the show with Joel shman and John I’m so glad that uh Dan odow is hitting lead off for us today uh obviously I’m not here with John I needed uh somebody to help me through my thoughts on where we are with Juan stto some of the other free agency and Dan first of all thank you so much for joining us um Dan Dan I want to like see if I could get you to put your former executive hat on and if you could like what is for our listeners what is this moment like for an executive where you’re kind of in the forest a little bit right like you’ve made offers you’re waiting and you’re doing probably the best you can on Intel what’s the who else is in this what are the offers should we up it what is silence like in a negotiation how much Discipline Do you have to need to like not start bidding against yourself so to speak yeah Joel you know I’ve learned painfully after some of the Hampton and Denny Nagel signings early in my career I think you value the player uh based upon your circumstances and you put forth eventually the offer you feel like represents what value you have on that player and then you spend your rest of your time developing play bcde and F and you really don’t spend a whole lot of time because you don’t control the time frame at all but you do control how you’re going to respond if you don’t get the player I’m sure that’s what the teams involved they focused on right now so when it comes to someone like stto uh look it’s pretty clear to me that there are at least four very serious bids Toronto Boston the two New York teams I think the Dodgers are mainly hovering because they’re the Dodgers they like to information hunt they like to see if markets collapse I think this player has any chance of having a market collapse he has had really the Synergy you’re looking for he had a great season a great postseason did it all in New York to take that off the list of if he could do it he’s going to play at 26 next year he has the two New York teams biding against each other he has Boston and Toronto two kind of desperate teams in it uh I’m I’m not saying Scott Boris isn’t a good Agent I feel like I could do this one uh and and and it could get done I wonder if you could if I can make you specifically the Yankee GM at this moment you just went to the World Series with Juan stto you know how mantel and Maris Soto judge look that you likely will make all the playoffs in the next five to six years if you keep that group that duo together and you do a good job around them and yet it’s going to probably take 13 or 14 years it’s going to take a number that probably starts with a six over 600 million maybe more and you know Str actually it doesn’t look great right because you got to keep playing Aaron judge in center field if you have Juan stto in right field at least until Stanton runs out in three years take me through it if you’re the Yankees like is it a hey we got to go to the ends of the Earth We’re the Yankees we can’t lose we haven’t had a good left-hand hitter in 10 years we’re gonna let the best one in the game walk out the door with the Yankees how does that happen or hey we have to have a line we won’t cross and we’ll figure out what plan b c and d is yeah like I mean one was great player and he’s at the incredible age that he’s at too he’s in the prime of his career and he’s just one of the most elite hitters we’ve going to see in our generation saying all that Joel I may surprise you by saying I’m not sure it’s in the Yankees best interest to go down this path um I don’t think there’s any one way to win in the game and I think it’s foolish to present things like if we don’t have this player they we’re never going to get a chance to win the Yankees have three players committed to $108 million on their payroll if they signed juoda you just said with a six in front of it now they have 168 million four players simply the math does not work I mean their depth of their system and the impact of their prospects just don’t allow them to put a quality team on the field in the aggregate with the depth you need to win in today’s game so if I’m the Yankees I certainly would want them back but I would anticipate you’re going to lose them because I don’t think they’re as desperate in the situation as the other three teams are I don’t think the in that situation either I think Toronto by far is the most desperate team in this hunt um I think he’s the only guy that kind of saves them in relate to the position they’re in so I’d spent a lot of my time you know I’ve read articles Joel I mean I do like Bellinger as a fit there actually I’m a profar guy uh I think he’d be a perfect leadoff type hitter for him in left field I’d give Jason Dominguez another year of development because I know I’m going to need him at some point in time during the season I’d kick the tires on Alonzo I think his Bat profile is better in his swing because he hits a lot of his home runs to Center I think that works in Yankee Stadium and right field Christian Walker’s a Deadpool hitter I kicked the tiles on Aeron finding what his acquisition price would be it’s only a three-year deal and how much money I could get taken back in the deal so I’d be going in a lot of different directions knowing that listen stto by far gives me the most dynamic player but the reality of it is I gotta feel the team and there are limits of a payroll for any team in the game including the Yankees so I actually spent a lot of my time trying to figure out how we’re GNA build a championship team without Juan stto being on it and I’m not sure again that’s not in their best interest long term yeah look I’m not here to uh Champion house Stein brener uh you know I’m sure him and his family are well off financially but I do think Hal is being honest when he says for him $300 million payrolls are not sustainable longterm I do think they begin every year by paying $85 million to the city for the ballpark that 300 million plus tax plus operating plus plus all the steinbrener children and grandchildren who are on the books who have to you know Hal has a lot of mouths to feed there and again there’s not going to be sympathy for Hal but I will say this about being Hal steinbrener it’s a zero sum game chasing these players because every time one of them is up he hears from his fan base well you know what your father would have done which is all nonsense because I actually covered his father and his father was a bad owner as much as he was a good owner for most of the time he was there got kind of Lucky when he was suspended that they put great players in and look they said this he traded for Stanton with 10 years and 300 million left on it he gave Garrick Cole the largest pitching contract in history he gave Aaron judge the largest positional contract per year in history there is never going to be the moment he signed SoDo they’re going to be like why aren’t you signing Corbin burns your father would sign Corbin Burns so there’s like a zero some game there for him about like and to your point is he better off doing hey I’ll bring in sand there tra for Bellinger put Willie Adamas at third base and I got a better allaround team and it’s probably close to the total dollars per year for a short a term than soda yeah I mean I always look to build teams in the aggregate because if you look at the roster turn of Major League clubs you’re going through 40 plus players a year so the depth you know is your ability to stay competitive both short-term and long term I mean how is not Guggenheim you know the group in La is or Steve con right yeah I mean just that’s the reality of I mean he’s an extremely wealthy guy but there are limits to what he can do but I’m just not even sure Joel from a baseball perspective I don’t know maybe I read into Aaron judge’s comment more than I did uh more than I should have because it was a comment that was made there was no context to it so I have no idea but when his comment was hey I it’s not my money I I I really don’t care what happens I don’t know it just sounded like I don’t know there was a maybe a disconnect there with maybe what maybe he was sending a message of what to do and I’m maybe again reading in it to more than I am than I should be but I I just feel like this the one like the Mets payroll flexibility this year is just way better than the Yankees they don’t have any of the anchors the Yankees have from a contractual standpoint nor do they have some of the star players the Yankees have too they have Lindor but if the Mets are going to take their payroll to where it was a year ago they’ve got1 1701 1880 million doll to play with they can play at the top of the pitching Market at the top of the position player market and still fill out their roster from an aggregate standpoint the Toronto has got tremendous payroll flexibility and they got two players at the end of the year that are free agents they need to make this happen and Boston hasn’t been a player for a year but Boston’s strength is in their position players not their pitching so I just don’t even get this whole thing with them so I just feel like the Yankees of that grouping of teams just needs to figure out how they can be as good as they possibly can without him being a part of it short-term and long term I think he’s just healthier for the franchise yeah you know you mentioned Toronto uh an executive who I was talking to us is kind of monitoring this situation yesterday said Toronto’s on tilt that’s how they’re going and it should be remembered they offered the same 700 million to Otani last year that the Dodgers did uh so we know that there without the deferrals without deferrals so there is a willingness to go to a place the question that I’ll always have here is I believe a player has a right to prioritize whatever he wants in free agency he’s earned free agency by playing six major league seasons and if the last dollar is your goal that is fine to me whatever but I had talked to stto enough during the season Dan where I thought you know this guy has a sense of history and his where his place might be as an historic hitter and I hate to be be provincial and I won’t because I’ll add Boston to it I’ll add the Cubs to it I’ll add the Dodgers to it I’ll add the Phillies there are places you can be historic I’m not sure Toronto is one of those places if you’re trying to be like thought of as Ted Williams of your generation and I wonder if that works against Toronto in some way I wonder if it worked against Toronto with Otani I think you’re 100% correct Joel I think I you know I first I think it’s a beautiful City that it’s a gigantic baseball Market but but from a historic perspective it’s just not of the same lore as the Yankees are for an example um I just like with Juan’s comments immediately after the World Series hey I’m open for business and I’ll go anywhere like I realized that was Scott probably a lot of that was making sure that he said the right things to present as many different options as he possibly can I just I’ve been around players in my career quite honestly knew from day one we’re going to chase the last dollars and I didn’t care about that I just knew that that was important to them that in some way equal a sense of self-worth and what you said you know a recognition historically in the game um I always felt like he fell into that category I guess time will tell whether that’s true or not but I do believe Toronto will make an offer that’s right there where the Mets are I think they’re going to be the two highest bids in this process and I think it’s going to come down to a decision does he want want to go back to New York for less money meaning the Yankees or is he going to want to chase the money in Toronto or um in flushings yeah yeah and I’ll just add one thing before we flip over to the to the Mets here is you you made an interesting point Boston needs starting pitching for a organization that has disappointed their fan base by not not pursuing Big Fish the last few years like I’ve got to believe that there I don’t think these are stupid people so I have to think that they’re in with both feet also because the last thing you want to do again is say hey we monitored it or we finished third uh in this they finished third a lot the last few years and in in probably the most critical media Market even more than New York to some degree in Boston I would not be setting up my fan base with high expectations to finish third so I just wonder is Boston in this a lot deeper and their feeling is we’ll get pitching by using some of these young position players if we could get so because because it just doesn’t make tactical sense to who the Red Sox have been the last few years to put yourself out there in this way and and not be kind of financially committed at the very top of the market well I definitely think it’s a reaction from saying you’re all in and past years and never being all in so I definitely think they’re all in and I mean stto is a lot safer um Pursuit than Corbin Burns if you just historically look at you know the injury likelihood of sustainability for soda is way higher than signing at topof the market starting pitcher so I get that thought process completely I just don’t know if they’re going to play at the same levels Toronto or the metwood I mean I just don’t know if they have the wherewithal to do that either and and Joel for me again they could build their pitching staff in the Aggregate and be way better they were for me two three weeks I thought Alex cor did one of the best managing jobs he’s done in his career last year and it’s like a three-week window if they played better that I thought that was a postseason team so I don’t think they’re that far away with their positional players I could see them doing something with a bregman if they don’t sign stto and trying to get Des to move to first base but I think that’s going to be a war uh to try to make that happen but I do see them being agressive continu with position players and I think you’re right I think they will try to take their younger position players in for an example a crochet from um you know from the from the white socks for me I would I think those young positional player groups are phenomenal and I think stto is going to be a man on an island there whereas with L they they don’t have a Lindor in Boston and they don’t have a judge in Boston so I think that stto performs so exceptionally well in New York because I thought Aaron judge took the pressure off him I think Lindor takes the pressure off of him and uh you know with the Mets I don’t see anybody in Boston taking the pressure off him he’ll have to be David Ortiz there and I’m not sure that’s the best situation for him to perform at a ties if we could flip before we go here if we could flip to the Mets they they’ve done some small things they traded for Jose Siri to play center field to essentially be Harrison Bader next season you know defense and homers uh they hope out of him but what I find interesting and I wrote about in today’s post uh Dan is the the Frankie Montas signing and from all the reporting I’ve done and look it’s Steve Cohen’s money maybe they’ll they’ll switch I heard they’re not in on freed that they’re not really in on burns uh that that David Stern’s thinking generally is there is so much data to show that players fall apart at a significant level in their mid-30s you know who doesn’t Hall of Famers Justin verland there if you guys and trying to guess who the outliers are he just doesn’t want to participate in that sport he was willing to spend 325 325 Million last year on Yamamoto who was 25 years old plus the posting Fe plus the tax because he was 25 but if he can’t get that guy he’s going to trust in the infrastructure that their scouting analytics will find good arms and their Sports Science will help keep it healthy and their pitching program will get the best out of it like they did with srino and manah last year I think we saw step one with Frankie Montas in a two-year contract they’re talking to Kay Holmes about maybe being a starter they liked what they saw late last season out of Mike Soka in the way they liked what they saw the previous late season out of manah I think they’re in on Walker buer I think this is where they’re arcing starting pitching wise what do you think about the theory yeah I think you’re right and I do understand what Davis thought process there to me it reminds me how NFL general managers look at runningbacks um and how they’re dispo not disposable but they’re interchangeable and um you know I think I think he builds a staff with workhorses hoping to like to me Frankie Montes is a plow horse not being disrespectful there at all he threw 150 Innings you know he usually takes the ball every fifth day he’s a great influence in the clubhouse they probably see something they can tweak in him to make his performance a little bit better but I think they look at guys like that hoping that the Quintas and seino Mer merg through the course of their season with their pitching development program and Pitch like a true number one when they need them to pitch the most at that but he doesn’t want to run the risk of having an albatross contract around his neck I mean I don’t know why maybe benay is uh pricing himself out I thought he was a great fit there even if it’s 20 times three a three-year deal for a starting pitcher is not you know it’s it’s you can see the Finish Line as soon as you sign it so me it’s not a bad contract I wouldn’t be shocked if he ended up circling back to him at some point in time when the Market’s been flushed out but I think he’s going to add arms to where he goes into a season with eight guys and he’s going to figure out who the best five are to start with he’ll probably go with six so SGA doesn’t have to pitch every five days to Monitor and keep him healthy but I do think he’s GNA try to create this position player club that is absolutely lights out dominant and do what he did in Milwaukee with the back end of his Bullpen yeah I think you’re you’re right and I think that they’re trying to create some time feeling that they’ll be able to again this is the conceit of 30 organizations everyone thinks they’re going to do it right but they believe that like uh Brandon Sprout and Nolan McLean are close and they feel highend close uh and they want to create some time with some short-term contracts to get to to do more development of those guys and everything else because they want to be the Dodgers they want to create that factory of arms that are coming through and then augment around it and I think that’s short-term pitching and to your point a wrong everyday lineup so I think you know SoDo obviously uh falls into that cat I will say I’ll be shocked if SoDo doesn’t end up there I really do if you just look at how everything lines up and curious what your thoughts are Steve can probably beat any bid by 50 million dollars and Soto gets to stay in New York it’s a really good lineup it’s got athleticism depth they could either keep Pete if they want to or they can move Vientos to to first sign another third baseman on top of that and really be better defensively than they were a year ago in the infield um because they got Mauricio coming back who I think is a greatl looking Prospect um so they just they got a chance from a positional player group to be pretty special I do think he needs work in the back end of his Bullpen because he had lights out both with with a questionable starting rotation after the first two in Milwaukee he had a great backend Bullpen with tremendous amount of depth every year he needs to work on that yeah there’s no doubt I think uh I think he’s going to be among the mo the busiest uh Executives as we go along uh this off seon it’s going to be really busy in Dallas uh Dan O Dow’s going to be there for MLB Network so am I Dan I so appreciative you joined us here and I look seeing you in Dallas thanks so much to Dan O one more thing Joel is that congratulations on your guys success I mean you you and John started this not long ago youve got one of the best podcast in the entire country that focuses on the game of baseball so congratulations to you guys for Having the courage of doing this and making it so successful thank you Dan and stick with us uh Brian Kenny joins us next to talk Hall of [Music] Fame so without sounding too sappy I do want to say uh one of my Joys at working at MLB Network the the my two favorite things I do every year at MLB Network I do with Brian Kenny one was ml be now from the field at the World Series uh and the other is I did it for the first time last year I went up to Cooper toown and I BK I am as you know more cynical and skeptical than most people and I didn’t think it would hit me and you know what being up there with you and JP morosi and Jason Stark on the day where we announced who was going in into the Hall of Fame that was kind of great uh the shows leading up to it were great uh I enjoy the conversation with three smart people on a subject that matters to all of us and I loved being there so BK for thank you for being on the show with Joel Sherman and John Heyman John’s on vacation this week and thank you for kind of being part of the things that I really love to do with the network oh you’re welcome Joel and it’s a pleasure working with you uh it’s good working with um like-minded people who are uh skeptical um uh always you know challenging accepted thought um intellectual and yet having fun with with baseball and we know it’s it it maybe it’s Superfluous but it’s not to us it’s something ingrained in us and uh I’ve long loved the Hall of Fame and what it means and again talking Hall of Fame yeah gives us an excuse to go back to what meant so much to us so yeah being in Cooper’s town and we’ll be up there this January January 21st for the official announcement we’ll be doing MLB now shows right there from the gallery I mean being in the Hall of Fame in Cooper’s in the winter especially I love that when it’s a little quieter is such a treat and uh yeah I love doing that last year with with you Jason JP was fantastic I look forward to it again this year so we’re we’re talking about it because I got one of these in the mail about a week and a half ago that’s a a Hall of Fame ballot and you know it’s what it’s the Hall of Fame that matters right it’s the one people have conversations about that people are passionate about I just want to begin at this place I actually think the day that this comes out should be a bigger deal that there should be like the I am on the committee that helps decide who gets on the ballot you know you get the list of everyone who played 10 years in the major leagues five years out who should be on it you know I assume Ben zis is never making the Hall of Fame I assume Adam Jones isn’t going to make the Hall of Fame but to Simply get on the ballot means that you play 10 years in the major leagues a very very difficult thing to do and then the second thing is you played in an incredibly High level and I think we should celebrate the Day this comes out and who’s on it new every year in a more significant way no no question I I would look at it even like last year right you named a few guys that were that are down ballot last year I did essays on Adrien Gonzalez and Matt holiday right just examinations for coopertown justice and I know they’re not quite Hall of Famers but they had great careers not good great they’re right right there and so I was arguing their case I was telling all our producers at MLB Network I was like take a good just get on baseball reference take a good look at Adrien Gonzalez take a good look and be reminded of where Matt holiday was like wow what type of uh super productive hitter he was for a good enough period of time I know they just fall short just like you know you mentioned Adam Jones Johnny Damon might fall short right Mark Burley might fall but these guys weren’t just like hey they played their 10 years and they got on the ball like no they had great careers and I’m longing like you to to somehow recognize that and I agree with you it’ be nice to get up there there’s already a screening committee it’s not just everybody gets on and uh even the players this year when you think of like Russell Martin uh Carlos Gonzalez Troy tulowitzky zis guys who probably won won’t make it might not make the 5 percent Joel um still guys who are close to what wherever we would deem that line they’re close to it you know BK we’ll be doing this a lot over the next few weeks leading up to uh the announcement in the third week of January up in Cooperstown the the key elements but let let if I could go through a couple of them does a unanimous vote mean anything to you because we’re gonna that’s going to be a subject is Ichiro going to get all the votes is he gonna join Mariano Rivera and be 100% and Sh should it matter it doesn’t matter at all to me yeah not not at all because there could always be that one kudin or there could be someone who I I know is uh you know trying to save votes to keep guys over the 5% I I don’t get crazed about it I also I never even talked about it when it was Tom sver who had the highest percentage like okay like what does that really mean you know and Tom sver is an all-time great like a top five pitcher all time but it doesn’t it didn’t mean he’s better than Walter Johnson it doesn’t mean that it’s so no I have you noticed on our shows uh I’ll I’ll bring it up as a topic just to bring up and say same way you did does it mean anything and my answer is no see I’m with you because we went on a Witch Hunt for the one person who didn’t vote for Derek Jeter which detracted to some degree from the day that Derek Jeter got not by the way president in North Korea doesn’t get 99.99% of the vote and here with Derek Jeter and we’re worried about some one person who decided to do something kind of like offbeat crazy like for whatever reason they decide to do it they did it you know the one other thing about icho that kind of stood out to me it made me go down a wormhole you think about like great careers and how we may frame it so icho just as a Hall of Famer based on what he did in MLB but like if you combine with what he did in mpb in Japan it’s over 4,000 hits and I went and looked at what Hideki Matsui did in the do you know do you know he hit over 500 homers combined in the two places and he as a major leager he was 118s plus he was a great postseason player I wonder like I’ve always been longed for and I’m not saying he’s a Hall of Famer but that we should do careers in their totality the baseball life of somebody right because ultimately that’s what happens when you end up voting in if Dave Johnson ever gets into the Hall of Fame right like that would be how he got in he was a well above average Major League player and lanella he was a well above average Major League player then he was a well above average manager in multiple places and I just wonder what you think about like should it just really be crystallized to this or as more foreign players come here should we be thinking about what’s the totality of their baseball life yeah no no question I think it’s it was the National Baseball Hall of Fame because that made sense in the 1930s um as you know it’s the international Basketball Hall of Fame it should be the international Baseball Hall of Fame now thate and this has only happened over the last decade or two but that Japanese baseball is if it’s not on par with the United States major leagues it’s right there maybe now it’s not quite as deep the United States major leagues are better but how much better how much deeper I think eventually that has to change and that will that will change things as far as the totality of the that leads to a lot of other things where people who are contributors which I’m in favor of like a baseball life you and I have had these conversations whether it’s Buck O’Neal or Bill James or someone like that just like owners get in I have no problem with owners or Commissioners getting in they’re significant contributors to the game I think there are also right pitching coaches and uh you know saber metric pioneers and now sooner or later we’re going to be faced with where managers used to have a an Avenue to get in general managers it’s a little tougher and actually general managers now are deemed more important than managers we can argue that but it’s kind of we we’ve arrived there and we’re going to have to look more closely at people like Brian Cashman and uh Theo Epstein and say you know is there an Avenue for these GMS to get in there is pacul has gotten in John shalts but it’s it’s a separate committee that they’re up against you know uh managers and owners and you know used to be Pioneers I think there’s room for more without diluting the entire honor you really want to start an ugly with a lot of people mentioned that maybe Scott Boris should be in the Hall of Fame if we’re going to spread it through baseball life Dr Frank job uh you know how many players careers have been saved because of Tommy John surgery uh one last one on icho because it’s part of my concern about where the voting has gone over the last 10 years in specific you know Ichiro only finished with a 107 Ops plus he only finished with three seasons of more than four War you know you if it I I’m afraid that a voter that looks at just those and I wonder if those are the numbers that most voters now a majority of Voters look at as at least a base when they’re deciding what they want are going to miss it which is why the baseball Riders were honored with this being the selectors because we are at the games and we watch players and I hope that the voters don’t stop thinking about what does it feel like to what you know what what did it feel like to watch ich for those seven or eight years where it felt like he hit a ball he was moving down the first base line and suddenly he was standing on third base and you were like how did that happen yeah and and he Unleashed a throw and you thought like how did that happen I’m just as somebody who cares about this also BK I just wonder you you you’re part of the metric Revolution with MLB now but I also always think of you as a thoughtful guy who says Hey like you got to watch the games and care about more than War more than Ops plus I wonder what you think about it yeah know again to give the background for people who haven’t you know watch me or follow me for a long time I was I was an advocate of an objective methodology 30 years ago I was doing I was doing Hall of Fame nights on my local TV channel wnn and wtza in Upstate New York in the in the 80s and then in the 90s we had a little half hour TV show on our our little TV station so I was an A and then when I got to ESPN I was always looking for an objective methodology so I’m the one who was saying hey like develop some standards now having said that now that we’ve had these standards especially for war and Ops plus and ra plus which uh measure the runs scoring environment which is an awful lot of the context of baseball like don’t blind yourself to other things I I have a couple of points can I throw them at you yes one just to remind people in my book I did uh which was six years ago ahead of the curve I wrote about bad baseball writer votes right what surprised me was a lot of those votes really came about when I was a formative age as a sports cter in the like late 70s 80s 90s into the Arts when and and but so I went back to 1933 I said I’m gonna look at every single vote and I did I’m GNA find all these bad votes what I found was in the 1930s 1940s 1950s there were very few bad votes in in fact and I I my conclusion was these were the writers who were going to the games there were a lot more Short Stops winning MVPs pitchers when they were pitching over 300 Innings and catchers those are the guys who are watching the games that could that could sense again our inner computer is sophisticated when you’re watching the games pitch by pitch and there are fewer teams in the league I believe those Sports Riders had a good sense of who was most valuable so yes have it shouldn’t be the war Hall of Fame and and the numbers you were citing with Ichiro don’t capture his game by the way the war Numbers Never captured big Poppy’s game like we know when we were watching him this guy was a monstrous you know Force the Monstrous force in the game actually and then you could actually look at him and go wow he was a 4.4 War like well that didn’t C that didn’t capture what the guy does another guy that I looked at a few years ago we don’t have to go into it in depth but like I was looking at like when I was looking at why Don maddingley has such an impact on all of us and I you know figured out it was the strikeouts the contact and the power it’s a very strange combination and the Fielding on top of it all you know another guy like that is someone who gets compared in these like oh if you look at his regular numbers how did he ever get into the Hall of Fame curvy Pucket but you remember watching Kirby Pucket we were younger but we watched him um we were Sports casters you were a sports riter when were watching him like if you even if you look at his line and you really dig into the numbers get into the number of hits the power and everything that he had you see the volume and the batting average you see H there’s something different about this guy and when you watched him you saw you knew you were watching one of the best players in the league and then if you look back at just at you know just the bones of it later in the stats that we normally look at they don’t properly capture Kirby puckets career I just throw that in as an example Ichiro the same thing right oh his Ops plus was this like now you really had to see the guy and that’s not hyperbole we could get into the metrics as to why and to your point of taking extra bases and fielding and his rare skill set of his his uh base running and his arm like that alone leads to a lot of winning baseball that we’re only now Joel capturing in our baseb plays that we do on MLB now or watching hey what was the difference between the Dodgers and the Yankees this year one team seemed to be a little more baseb than the other it matters it matters as much as a double to the Gap that drives in two runs yeah well the longstanding thing is the hardest thing to do in sport is to hit a round ball with a round bat especially when the round Ball’s coming in with great velocity and great Spin and great movement and I would say that few people in the history of the game did it quite as well as rro Suzuki right there’s the hit totals are staggering I think there’ll be another one where modernity will fight against something else and that will be the case about CC Sabathia who feels very Jack morisy to me except for in an age when there are no other Jack morrises like we’re watching the end of the mastadons walk through the planet right with when Kershaw sh Verlander are gone maybe gar cole looks a little like that but then after that yeah you know Zack Wheeler who started late so do we kind like like if you just look at well look at sabathy as erra I’m like well look at that fiveyear period where he pitched 230 Innings or more and in each of those five years also pitched in the postseason in two of those you know like he was a guy in 2008 the the the Brews hadn’t made the playoff since 1982 heroic he he was visitor on the team and with free agency coming up and he kind of like on his arm carried the team to the playoffs he pitched on short rest when the Yankees won their only championship of the last legend yeah and and again like I think in like there’s no value in being there and talking to other people in the game about how they felt when Kirby Pucket batted or CCE safia started well then just have an AI program put people in the Hall of Fame and I just wonder so so CC and kind of what does the future of a starting pitching Hall of Famer look like is is Corbin Burns having a Hall of Fame career is Chris S having a Hall of Fame like we’re gonna have to change our line as we go along here definitely adjust we gonna have to make an adjustment let me I want throw a few ideas on that too remember like Kurt Schilling didn’t get in on the first ballot and a lot of people now will say well Kurt Schilling has all these other things happening it’s like no no no no no hold on in year one and I think year two he was doing night baseball for ESPN um the social his social media accounts were much quieter he wasn’t very controversial it slightly controversial was kind of a bullheaded guy but was not this you know social media Pariah that he later would become and yet like and I was puzzled because I’m like hey if the writers and the voting block I thought you guys liked winning thought you guys liked winning Kurt Schilling was a winner there’s no question and but he had what is it 216 wins at the time the actual win total was low but when you look at him year by year and then his impact on winning championships like penants and championships huge so he didn’t get in that was not that long ago Joel as you know was that 10 12 years ago at this point 13 14 years ago um and he didn’t get in in those first two ballots and then he started to get traction he would have gotten in but then all the social media things were happening culturally it was not uh you know seen as fashionable to vote for Kurt Schilling which I’m against I think you know if you think he’s a Hall of Famer vote if you want to honor him you don’t want to honor him fine um but Sabathia to me like I did my first essay when he announced his retirement like right around that time and I did coopertown Justice and I looked at it and I thought oh wow he’s not going to get it like you know I know what the writers like they don’t like they don’t like this and I did an essay kind of from the aspect of I know he lands very closely in the totality like from a wider vision from The Wider lens he rates up very well with Mark Burley and Andy petett who are not getting enough traction they’re getting votes from the writers they’re respected but they’re not getting in uh despite Championship pedigree postseason winning and also like incredible uh durability and so I thought he’s not getting in but I tried to do a sell you know what I mean like but here’s my sell on CC Sabathia like he’s a winner right 2008 2009 let’s get into the weeks he’s a championship level player what’s changed though Joel is like that sort of thinking I think has started to get through the cult culture a lot just as it has for yti or Molina like it will for I think Buster posie as well where it’s like hold on let’s not be married to these metrics let’s use the objective methodology let’s not be married to them and I think CC’s branding is excellent right now I maybe again maybe I’m wrapped up in our little bubble where you know we we talk to you know Jason Stark and Peter Gamin and we we just wrapped up in ourselves but I think his branding is good and I think he’s going to get a lot of votes whereas when he first retired I thought boy that’s a shame he’s not going to get in the Hall of Fame and he deserves more consideration um I don’t know people are asking me how many votes he gets this year I think he might be in the 60% range I think he gets a lot what do you think yeah I think he’s GNA get a lot and not get in if I had a guess um not getting year one right yes just just just for the record I was 10 for 10 on Kurt Schilling I voted for him all 10 years I thought he was a Hall of Famer winning is a as key an element to me as anything this why we play the damn Seasons we don’t play him for wins above replacement we play to see who gets rings and parad which doesn’t have to mean World Series it can mean yes division titles penants World Ser like like it’s not just winning playing a game for all your money tomorrow and I tell you you have Kurt Schilling in his prime to pitch a big game you’re like great just again the being there like uh CC Sabathia and Andy petett have remarkably similar numbers for their careers but in their time BK people thought of CC Sabathia as a picture of an ace and people thought of Andy petett as the picture of a great number two starter and I think like that’s also where numbers could fool you and you have to be there and know what it feels like and smells like and talk to people who were there sabathier was the guy you gave the ball to on opening day you gave it to him on the big Series in Boston you gave it to him on the game one of a playoff series if he was fully rested Andy petett was great it’s again why we should honor the ballot Andy pet is one of the guys you honor the ballot for look at that career look at it’s going to fall short of the Hall of Fame look at how great he was let’s honor just simply doing what he did B the clock’s going to work against us a little and there’s like 10 other things I want to ask you and I know we’ll talk about all of them between now and uh late January let me ask you about one other guy because it’s his last year on the ballot and it’s Billy Wagner uh Billy Wagner is a guy I have not voted for uh to this point and uh if I could just throw out two comparisons and because I’ve more and more like look this is his last year I’m doing more work on I I work on everybody every year I have a little database I keep on everybody I go through the cases again and I thought about it so Billy Wagner threw 93 Innings and it doesn’t feel like a lot like Jacob deg Gro has thrown 464 more Innings than Billy Wagner at this point I understand they’re different jobs but I would say Jacob the Grom to some degree is the starting Wagner right like he when he pitched he was dominant his 1400 he’s won two sa young Awards he he he’s great like what point is it like too little for both jobs to say that you should go into the Hall of Fame so there’s there’s that the other one is Billy Wagner’s numbers are remarkably similar to aralis Chapman’s numbers and I would say that they are very similar the power left-hander you know like like uh here here’s a thing is Billy Wagner’s save percentage for his career is under Chapman’s 85.9 87.5 right they’re FIP Chapman’s is better their strikeout percentage Chapman is better their batting average against Chapman is better they’re Ops against Chapman is better and by the way they’re starting to get close to games appeared in Innings appeared in and both of them have the same exact problem when it came to Big moments in the postseason Chapman given up three of the biggest homers in three of about his 15 postseason games whatever number Wagner was in he gave up if go to baseball reference who gave up the biggest hit in the game he did and so when people go why didn’t he play in more postseason like oh you it’s too small a sample I go well one of the reasons the small sample is he didn’t close out some of this stuff like where he did that’s the Bigg yeah that that’s the biggest thing against him but I just to jump in you’re also looking at it to even bring deg gram into the argument again you’re getting out of the weed and getting at 30,000 F feet I would just keep it to relief pitches which is difficult by the way you could compare him we looked at tug mgra Sparky L like don’t go there because I and I would also say I think those guys are Hall of Famers uh Dan Quisenberry I think guys from back then who were pitching 110 Innings out of the bullpen every year I’m with you BK I’m with you and and and so this is what I hate I always try to do this I can’t tell you how many times on a show with you I’ve said I want to keep in mind that we vote for people we don’t vote against them Billy Wagner had a brilliant career brilliant if he gets into Cooper town this year if he gets over the border and I think he probably will I think he’ll get the votes necessary and gets in the Hall of Fame will not be diminished by Billy Wagner being there and I hate but like I do feel like I should explain for somebody who’s that close I always feel like I should explain a case why what’s holding me back for the first nine years and I haven’t filled this thing out yet I’m still working on Billy W you didn’t vote yet no okay I I leave it on my desk I literally leave it on my desk BK every year and I I’ve got a couple of check marks on it for obvious and usually my history has been if it’s not obvious just put it in the mail and send it but I do especially on the guys who are getting laid on the ballot like Wagner I I go over it Andrew I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gone over Andrew Jones’s case over and over and over over again and so anyway it’s you should be able to say I don’t give this guy my vote because you’re when you say that you’re honoring everyone else in the Hall of Fame yes that’s what you’re doing where you’re not just being a kogan you’re just not hating on a guy and it’s harder these days to do that because it’s it’s more fun you get more likes not that I do social media but you know you can feel the pressure you can feel what people are saying or say saying about you I don’t anymore but you you you can feel because you’re you’re on social media but it’s more fun and more popular just to be in favor of a guy hey I’m in favor of Don maddingley and Bernie Williams and people like oh yeah and you don’t have to hear from people that say you stink why do you think that way like people just don’t bother if you’re in favor of a guy if you’re saying no it hurts more and I I’ve always been someone that I don’t do many Cooperstown justices for guys who I’m thinking no because I don’t want to come out and say hey by the way my conclusion is no but I have had to do things like for like Albert Bell where I’ve said okay I can see why you would vote for the Hall of Fame for this player or Billy Wagner but I understand why you wouldn’t and here’s why I would or or I wouldn’t and I’ll leave it at that but for me Billy Wagner I asked was he good when you were watching him play when you saw him come into a game right he has a bad postseason no question but was he good or was he great he was great yeah you know he was great he’s very border great he’s very border line for me B and he’s number two by the way I just I always throw this in but if he was number nine or 10 or 14 in park adjusted erra and and run environment adjusted erra I would say like Jonathan papal Bond did got no support Joe Nathan got no support they deserved more support they those guys were actually great Papa bong was great in the post season got no backing Billy Wagner is number two behind Rivera in park adjusted and runs scoring adjusted erra number two for me that puts him over the line it’s it look it’s I think he’s gonna get over the line uh and I’ll just end this segment by by saying something one of my mentors said to me long ago when I worked at United president in n and he was a voter he said the way to know how great the Hall of Famers are is who’s not in right you know and so I always think of that is like you have to have a borderline and that borderline might be Billy Wagner and Andrew Jones well if Andrew Jones and Billy Wagner don’t get in think about what you’re saying about the people that are in he uh throw out the date one more time we’re doing the show January 21st uh we’re going to be having the live announcement on MLB Network um I think it’s usually like around six o’clock Eastern time Josh rowt the president of the Baseball Hall of Fame will be with me we be up there as well in the gallery doing shows I think that Monday Tuesday and Wednesday um in January and late January um you know after the announcement and be up there hopefully it’ll be snowing we get to frolic through Main Street we’ll get to look at some of the plaques again and yes maybe Bourbons will be fresh and uh yeah so look forward to being up there at theoda Saga and up at the hall of fame and for people who don’t go up like I say how do you go in the winter you go in the winter time you’ll love it all right BK thank you so much will you we’re gonna go to a quick break here will you stick in play hit or arrow with us when we come back oh sure sure all right thanks so much BK uh we’ll be back on the show with Joel Sherman and John Heyman in one moment BK I know it’s been on your career bucket list to play hit or error on the show uh you get you get to do it this week do you have a hit or an error well my nor we do hit or error on MLB now but we actually do the errors we play hit or error and I point out the absurdity of charting errors in this Century right so like that’s early 19th century my my I I would do an error I’m I’m stunned you know I I’ve Loved again over the last my whole career I love the crazy ideas I love um hey in boxing what if we fought you know five rounds in a championship fight you know people you can’t do that they fight 12 rounds or 15 or 10 or like what but if it’s five then the guys really fight harder for five rounds you only have so much endurance I love crazy ideas I love oh for the allar game let’s do this International versus National young guys versus old guys all you know I love these ideas the golden it bat to me like it strikes me as no like I I try not every time someone comes with a hey I have a crazy idea Okay let’s listen to it let’s be open-minded so it’s it is fun for a tournament for I don’t know spring training for um the WBC something like that but it strikes me as that’s not Major League Baseball I’ll just leave it at that itri if if everyone loves it and it’s fun and it increases ratings to have Otani and Bryce Harper batting five you know I’m sorry to nine times per game or an one extra time when you can bring them out on whatever the idea is if it’s wanted bat that you can play someone else say okay it won’t change my life but I’m stunned people like it I’m stunned that this has any traction if that changes the game and makes it more fun and increases viewership fine go with it but I’m stunned people are even considering it it seems so against the whole nature of the team sport well it’s going to be great if it ever comes and you have like Juan sto as the gold in it bat and then W go wan sto’s spot in the order comes up next and it’s Juan SoDo followed by Wan stto hitting right like that that will be an interesting clone moment and and by the way has anybody brought more crazy ideas about baseball to you than I have over the last 10 years I’m usually the the the place I’ll I’ll do something also that I like that is happening where teams are open-minded and we’re seeing some results so I reported today that the Mets are looking at Kay Holmes as a starting pitcher and you know uh Jeff Hoffman who had such a good relief year both Hoffman and Holmes made the all-star teams as All-Star relievers this year both are being looked at by at least a few teams as starters hey by the way uh Ronaldo Lopez Seth Lugo and Michael King all got sa Young Award votes this year Zack latel has done really well for the Tampa Bay Ray since they put him back we do have an epidemic of injuries and a question about if we have enough starting pitching I will give a hit to teams looking under every Rock to find guys who can give them 90 to 110 pitches and maybe five plus Innings at a time where we see like there’s never been more pitchers and less pitching to some degree like where you feel like like I can’t tell you how many times this year where Aaron Boon said something like oh yeah we were just about to run out of pitches and I’m like you have 13 pitches how are you running out of pitches and it’s because guys are used so much we’re not getting enough out of starting pitching so being able to uncover that Seth Lugo is not just a starter but a durable give you a lot of inning starters Michael King is a durable give you a lot of inning starter I like I’ll give a hit to teams being imaginative and looking at guys whose repertoire and durability uh profile suggest that they could start I you know and it’s about time um one you bring up a good point that we’re not even looking for seven Innings anymore like no can you give us five can you give us four and a third yeah and and right that this is happening now again I wrote in my book it was this is now eight years ago you know there there are Runners who are great at sprinting at the 100 meter some who are great at the 400 800 1500 5,000 same thing with pitchers some guys like Tim linicum was at his best doing two and a third like you need if you could identify those pitchers and use them for what they’re best at they’re clearly guys who are good just not nice and slow can give you six or seven at their best and then there are guys who can give you one and then there’s but then there’s all things in between I don’t think we’ve kind of developed that yet so I think we’re getting there and again hybrid pitchers 90 to 130 that’s the sweet spot if that can be excellent like the Dodgers look for that all the time that’s you know that’s what will help you win as well so it’s about time that we got there well one of the people who uh helps us think different about baseball for a long time now is you Brian Kenny and we appreciate you so much joining the show Dana D another of my teammates thank you so much for joining the show Tommy Hogan the producer of this show another thank you helps us so much uh especially in a week where I don’t have John to lean on thank you Tommy Hogan Apple Spotify wherever you listen to podcasts rate and review us give us a listen the New York Post sports YouTube page give us a view Brian Kenny’s background looks so nice there you you’ll want to see it and keep sticking with us all off season Maybe by next week we’ll know where Juan stto is going so stick with us on the show with Joel Sherman and John Heyman

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