📅 Published on: 2024-11-27 22:00:06

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🕵️‍♂️ Transcript:

it’s election season no not that type of election we’re talking Baseball Hall of Fame who’s on the ballot who’s on our ballots who’s getting in who’s not let’s talk about it all that more coming up right after this [Music] [Music] welcome back to the immaculate inning episode number 23 I’m Kay Ramsey alongside BJ laudermilk here for this episode first of all Happy Thanksgiving everyone hope you en enjoy your Thanksgiving week and all that we have Baseball Hall of Fame on the docket today and we’re very excited to get to that but first of all as usual we have our Immaculate grid that we always do yep and this one coming to us uh this is a little bit of a throwback back to uh grid number 450 so we’ve got uh a couple of teams from LA with the Dodgers and Angels here in the top left corner the Braves the Tigers as well with the Dodgers and then we’ve got a 2,00 plus career strikeout pitcher and a 10 plus win season as a pitcher so the obvious one to me at least for right now with the angels 10 plus win season is shohi because I would imagine that he had uh 10 or more wins at one point while he was with the angels uh so that was the first thing that came to mind but we’ll see if we can do a little bit better uh I got another option that I’m peing at right now uh oh yeah um Angels 10- win season uh he was an All-Star this year Tyler Anderson Tyler Anderson okay I was thinking Jared Weaver as well uh because I’m pretty sure he had a 10- win season Tyler Anderson you said 0.2 look at you he also works for Dodgers and Angels too by the way yeah but probably for the best that we used them there um would Jared Anderson work or Jared Weaver I should say work for 2,000 plus for strikeouts no he was at 1621 although that 2010 season that he had 233 will be remembered fondly By Angels fans this awkward throwing Lefty began his career with the Atlant at Braves and then immediately went to the Los Angeles Dodgers who is it uh it would be um and has most recently pitched for the Oakland Athletics okay that’s not who I was thinking of um he also features stops in Cincinnati and San Francisco Cincinnati and San Francisco um within a quiz yeah I know I’m I I can see him almost CLE clear as day the uh the name I thought of first I thought that um I thought grad roll pitched for Atlanta as well as the Dodgers but maybe I’m wrong maybe grad roll was just with the Dodgers and not with uh Angels let see here yeah no he was with the twins first not the Dodgers or not the Braves uh um want to say is it it’s not um I know it’s not Kershaw because he’s been a Dodger his whole career oh why can I not think don’t don’t you just tell me it is Alex Wood Alex Wood yeah that’s right that is right that’s a good point I can I can see him clear’s day in the Giants uniform now 0.6 I like it uh okay let’s see here let’s see if I can do my fair share of heavy lifting um for Braves 2000 plus career strikeouts did um did we see Steve Avery get over 2,000 because you could argue that uh you know obviously everybody remember the trio of glavin Smoltz and Maddox but no actually he was shy of a thousand right yeah I just saw that let’s go with let’s let’s I’ll go ahead and take one just because I’ve got this here uh let’s go Tigers 10 wins uh season let’s go with Hal newhouser I like it Hal newhouser 3% it’s funny that that is the one that’s the most common out of the first three that we’ve got so far all right see what else we got here um obviously glamin Smoltz and MX all finished with over 2,000 over 3,000 strikeouts in their careers and they all have 10 plus wins in a season pitching um um um hold on hold on did could we go with we could go with I think Kevin milward for either one of these as well too right because he started with Atlanta he had 17 wins with the Braves in 98 and he finished 283 strikeouts in his career so we can go with Kevin Milwood in either one I got it I got it for the Braves 10 win I got it uh jio Tron okay then I’m going to go with Kevin Milwood for 2000 career strikeouts because I don’t think he would come up as much as people would think of the other three yeah 1% so 1% for Milwood 2% for Tyron so we got I mean nothing higher than 3% as of right now which is fascinating it’s really good oh man you know who would have been a really nice pick who for the Tigers 10 win season would have been Denny mlan oh yeah that would have been a real fun poll well wouldn’t he would he not work with u i already l i just LED yeah 30 win 30 wins is three times the uh 10- win season now here’s and he also won 24 and 69 funny you know yeah and it’s up to you if you want to do this or not Dodgers Tigers Jack flarity because he was traded this year from one to the other yeah we could do Jack flarity do let me see something here real quick 1% I like okay I was gonna say because I was gonna also then look at who he got traded for which Trey Sweeny probably did Trey Sweeney play in The Bigs for the Tigers I don’t think so I don’t remember him being up there well no he would have been traded from LA to Detroit so the question would have been if he played an LA and he did um yeah Dodgers and Angels show is the obvious answer but I’d like to do a little bit better than that oh yeah he played his last career there or the last year of his career there let’s go with Garrett Anderson he played his last year uh against uh for La so for the Dodgers yeah one t one t Okay 1% I’m I’m really liking this so far my dude this is we we’re in we could get the best score we’ve ever had so far if we can come up with really good my head but it’s not g to work out unfortunately for some reason I thought he had played for and he wouldn’t he wouldn’t have worked out anyways I had asked Deon loisa pop into my head for some reason oh okay um obviously for the Tigers you could go with Verlander for 10 win or not 10 win but I don’t want to use that I know I know I think we could do better I think we could do better I guess the question is who else was on that pitching staff uh sherzer right ma Scherer would work well what about do we think that there would be a lot of love for Jack Morris on this one because I think he would have gotten over 2,000 he pitched for the Tigers I gu I guess it comes down to what do you want to do here because he was obviously with Detroit for 14 years see yeah I feel like that that that late 2000s Angels team would have had somebody um who would have been on that team not early 2000s but the late 2000 right like Jared Weaver era yes John Lackey did Lackey get over 2000 that is yes yes he so should we go with Lackey then I think so okay I think we’re gonna struggle otherwise for the angels all right John CAU him Lackey 6% okay that’s not too bad that’s not terrible I get the biggest question I guess is do we want to go Jack Morris here as a final one we know we’ve got it remember though he doesn’t have to have played the majority of his career with the tit right I’m just trying to think of yeah 2000 career strikeouts pitching wise is there like a recent pitcher let’s see um not that this is an answer that works because it’s not but you know who’s not like that far off of being a name that you can use for this what Eduardo Rodriguez he has 1100 career strikeouts well 1154 he’s not that far off right he’s only pitched nine years right if he if he plays 18 years 17 18 years he can get there yeah I’m just trying to think of names right now that uh I’m really surprised I’m looking at the alltime strikeout list I would not have Peg Bert BL to be fifth behind Ryan Johnson Clemens and Carl at Time ahead of Tom sver Don Sutton Gaylord Perry Walter Johnson Justin berlander Matt Scherer which again I mean we Matt Scherer is another name but we’re trying to go almost like made a pit stop in Detroit and wouldn’t be remembered as being a tiger like hell I almost wish that Zack gry had spent a year in in Detroit just to you know see what we could do there um I got a couple options I’m looking at right now yeah the list of 2000 career strikeout pitchers is only 90d oh oh oh did he pitch for Detroit did he pitch for Detroit no I thought he did I thought I remembered a year that he was in Detroit but no it was he was not in Detroit okay here um Charlie Morton did he pitch for Detroit no he has not pitched for Detroit that might be what about David Price David Price David Price David Price is the call I think David Price is the call yeah David Price I had literally just clicked on his baseball reference page I forgot he ped to Detroit I know 4% look at that a rarity score of 19 might legit that might be the best that we’ve done on the show at any point yeah two weeks ago we didn’t even get Immaculate so this is right this is huge this is big so yeah yeah there right a Hall of Fame effort Hall of Fame this is what what it took this is what it takes when we got such an important show to do yeah so we have the bbwaa who has announced their ballot we’ll get to that here in just a moment but first of all BJ we got to talk about this classic baseball era ballot we we talked about it on the show two weeks ago because it dropped two weeks ago right here’s your eight guys and the so the way this works is it’s a panel of 16 people various like former players Executives uh writers historians it’s a it’s a panel play players yeah it’s it’s uh players broadcasters like I think I think this is where guys like uh Kenny Albert uh or not Kenny Albert but um what’s his face that does um the U MLB Network show that he’s always arguing with Mad Dog I can’t remember yeah but you know who I’m talking about at least right he’s always part of the baseball Fame coverage um and he’s alwaysi no no no no no it’s uh Brian Kenny I think it’s Brian Kenny is what I’m thinking yeah I think he’s he’s been either he’s part of this or he’s been a part of this before um so uh so here’s how we’re going to do this we each have our own ballot we want to talk about each of these players specifically and we’re going to say whether or not we’d vote for them and then we’re going to give you our ballot and we’re gonna do this with the other ballot as well let’s go ahead and get into it let’s start with Dick Allen who was last on a committee ballot just before he died2 and he was one vote shy so to so to get in you have to get 12 of the 16 people on the committee to vote you in he had 11 of 16 in 2020 22 so he’s running it back for another try when you look at dick Allen this is a guy that quite honestly well before now PJ and absolutely the guy has a rookie of the year that he won I believe in what year was that 1964 he has an MVP that he won with the white socks in 1972 he has 3 51 career homers he has didn’t steal a whole lot of bases that was his calling card he was just an extra base hit machine he had double digit triples four years in a row from 64 to 67 he was a let’s see he was a seven time All-Star 58.7 career War makes his case not so uh cut and dry but but he he is a guy that I would vote for he is a guy that I would vote for I think here’s the thing this is the biggest I think the biggest reason why he did not get a whole lot of love when you look at his stats yes he’s he’s he he is a little shy in the crew war in terms of when you look at the average of third baseman in the Hall of Fame he’s comparable in terms of being a few points off in the Jaws rating he’s his Peak war is higher than that of the average Hall of Fame third baseman 350 51 homers is nice especially at that position and especially for the era but I think a reason that a lot of Voters didn’t vote for him in his first run and all these subsequent runs since he fell shy of 2,000 hits and I’m I don’t know there may not be more than a handful like you probably count him on one hand number of players that have made the Hall of Fame with you know less than 2,000 hits he had 1848 in his career a 292 hitter he was PS plus of 156 but a lot of love for him in the Philadelphia area and you know uh a player that really represented the era and Philadelphia in that era um you know this this was a a guy that didn’t get a whole lot of love but really I think should have gotten more love I would absolutely vote for him as well uh looking back at his run on the bbwaa he never got above 20% he did not receive a whole lot of love on the veterans committee between 2003 and 2009 um in 2015 he received a fresh look and fell a vote shy then they changed the uh formats and his case was not considered again until uh the 2021 golden day era which was going to be held in December of 2020 but because of covid-19 they postponed it a year and he fell short again and subsequently died on uh December the 7th 2020 so he’s he’s been gone nearly four years now um and they uh when they finally met he fell a vote shy again in 20 December 2021 so it’s been three years since he was last considered he’s been gone now and I mean it it’s another one of those we’ve got several I think instances of players on this ballot that were close and are in consideration but you know they’re now gone and it’s it makes you just you know almost hit your head because it’s like yes this player absolutely has a you know um has a valid resume should be considered and they’re no longer here with us we we if even if they get inducted we’re not going to be able to get to hear from them uh and and so that’s that’s the thing that hurts the most when you look at dick Allen’s case I absolutely think he’s all Famer and I vote for him and before we move on let’s quickly run through and list off the remainder of the candidates Ken Boer John Donaldson Steve Garvey Vic Harris Tommy John Dave Parker Lou ton want to go ahead and get the uh the graphic off the screen so that y y’all can see us Kim Boyers next up received less than four out of 16 below four they don’t tell you how many that voted for him so he received less than four out of 16 in 2022 BJ this is a guy that you particularly really like he is an 11 MVP in 1964 won a 1964 World Series yeah for me it’s less so I’m less interested in his case because his falloff he was really good for about 10 years yeah and then his fall off was really really bad and they he had a similar career Arc to David Wright and a lot of people are concerned about his Hall of Fame case as well yeah I’m not quite there on him yet and yes he has an MVP and that’s a big deal for me which means that I’ll probably eventually get there on him but I just feel like there’s players who had a little bit more longevity a little bit more proven stuff a lot of more proven total accolades in their career well soer did but you’re you’re definitely high on him I would not vote for him but you on the other hand are you gonna vote for him so I I would and then here’s the thing the reason why because I I I think what we are you know when we talk about Hall of Famers we’ve really seen a a coming around of people that that are respecting a you know what a can what a a player was doing in their Prime and and their Peak as opposed to being punished for you know aging and and not having the same you know level of success and and I think this is where the argument comes in where a guy like me and and I thought a guy like you and I know you are and you know we just feel a little bit differently on this I guess as as people that are more of a big Hall Fame guy and more big Hall ballot wise I feel like Ken Boer is a guy that you look at what he was able to do in his Peak and he is absolutely right there and in terms of what you’ve seen from an already underrepresented uh position in the Hall of Fame at third base he played the Hot Corner very well his his career war is is only about seven maybe six six and a half uh points off of that of an average third baseman in the Hall of Fame his Peak is three points higher and Peak war is three points higher and his career Jaws is only about two points off from the average Hall of Famer at third base over 2,000 hits so that’s not the issue like you’ve seen with the dick Allen who if we both support him you know and that’s one of the big reasons why he’s been kept out you know he Boer was not the power hitter but at that time Third Base was not and there still not necessarily is a you know the big Power threat in the lineup still finished about 18 Homer shy of 300 the Ops is at 116 but you look at him in terms of where he was during that period he had to go up against Eddie Matthews and Ron Santo to you know fight for recognition as one of the top third baseman in the National League during that era he was a great player that had you know good power he was a very you know a good good speed and excellent glove at the hot corner but you know maybe he comes up a little bit short when you look at the otherwise numbers he he won the MVP he took home in his 11year period he won seven uh or was a seven time Allstar and won five gold gloves so I I’m really surprised that he’s not getting a whole lot uh more love other than maybe like you said because of that fallof because you look get um when you know after the uh after the World Series that they won in 64 he was you know really riddled with back problems his his batting average and and you know stats dip he was below 100 Ops and had a less than two war and 65 um and then after that he really just played uh for 67 games with the Cardinals before he was released in 6080 picked was picked up by the Dodgers and then spent the last couple years with them in a reserve role so you know again I think it’s another player that you know we’ll talk about there’s some others that have that had you know falloffs because of injuries and it’s just it it’s unfortunate that we can’t see everybody stay healthy their entire careers but I think what he did in his Prime um is is worth a look I I would vote for Kim Boyer I would vote for Kim Boer so there you go we’re kind of split on Ken Boyer as it stands I’m not saying that I don’t eventually get there with him I just think there’s more compelling cases here on this ballet right and there there’s compelling cases to be made for everybody and that that really gets going with the next guy John Donaldson look here I get it his baseball reference page doesn’t really show you a whole lot doesn’t really tell the full picture of John Donaldson this guy BJ as you’ve learned this guy has quite quite the track record that nobody really knows about okay let me just read this to y’all real quick researchers so far have discovered 718 games in which Donaldson is known to have pitched out of these games Donaldson has over 420 wins and 5,221 strikeouts as a pitcher also despite what has been found regarding Donaldson’s career over 170 games that Donaldson pitched in state no strikeout totals he might have more career strikeouts in the leagues that he played in the Nolan Ryan did unreal he’s a Hall of Famer he was also huge for the monarchs and All Nations teams and the barn storming effort um he’s he was a Scout at one point he’s done just so much uh for the game let me read this to y’all as well if I can go ahead and find it research also suggests that Satchel Paige owes much of his style and Acumen to Donaldson whose barnstorming efforts predated Pages by two decades yeah I mean just look at what newspaper coverage of his games revealed uh 424 wins 169 losses 15 ties which is a winning percentage just a little shy of 70 so like a 700 winning percentage almost 5,221 strikeouts which is like you said uh you know would be more than Nolan Ryan if if the if if some of those games that we don’t have stats for you know log the number of strikeouts he had he completed 92% of the starts that he had so you know went the full distance and he can also be credited with double the amount of no hitters that uh Nolan Ryan threw two more perfect games than Nolan Ryan ever threw with two and he’d be the you know the only pitcher that had more than one perfect game even if it wasn’t at the major league level and dozens of one hitters also two 30 strikeout games 11 games with more than 25 strikeouts 30 games with more than 20 and over a 100 games with more than 15 strikeouts just falling a little bit shy of Randy Johnson and Nolan Ryan’s total for double digit strikeout games with 203 I mean yeah absolutely this guy was this done was this done before the Negro Leagues and during the Negro Leagues yes it was yeah did he pitch in the majors did he pitch for Major League Baseball no he did not do I care no I do not we have other Negro League players that are in the Hall of Fame if those guys are going to be in he has to be in uh he received eight out of 16 in 2022 should have been a first ballot guy when he first got on and he should be in the of Fame and it’s a shame that he isn’t because he is a legendary player 30 plus years that he was pitching that that’s I mean that’s 10 more years than than most of the great major players play for so of of all players on on both ballots this year he is the most slam dunk Hall of Famer he his case is stronger than Ichiro in my opinion and we’ll get to that here in a little bit I think you’re right ofer it’s ridiculous absolutely he is definitely a Hall of Famer in my book you were you were the one that told me to to um to look into him and I’m glad you did because I I was just kind of like you know had no idea just a a random name otherwise outside of you know finding out oh hey holy crap we got something here with this guy and uh so is the case for the next guy I feel Steve Garvey who received six out of 16 in 2020 m former Michigan State Spartan and Los Angeles Dodger and San Diego Padre yeah a guy that won an MVP he had won he’s a 10-time All-Star eight of those were consecutive won a 1981 World Series four-time consecutive gold Glover two times an MVP in the NLCS two times an MVP in the All-Star Game and he also won the Roberto Clemente award during his career this is a guy goad no I was just GNA say this is a guy who was a positive War player uh up until age 36 and this is a guy that’s going to come up short if you are you know looking at things because of the you know current climate I feel like but um I I think that Garvey has a decent case to be made like you said I mean you know much of his career he was remarkably consistent and durable for his era you know he was knocking out 200 hits batting 300 you know 20 plus homers driving in 100 runs and you know he always played like in fact he is the National League record holder for consecutive games played you know we talk about C rip and Lou garri streaks in the American League but I don’t think a lot of people know that Steve Garvey has the Nation League record he played in 1,27 straight games from September the 3D of 1975 to July 29th 1983 it is still the fourth longest in Major League Baseball history after Cal Lugar and Everett Scott so that there you go I mean it’s a pretty slam dunk case to me the things that hurt him at War 38 career war is a little disappointing but he has the hits I mean he’s got he’s got just one hit shy of 2600 for a career got more hits than Dick Allen and we are both in on him yeah yeah he only has 270 career homers but I’m not I’m not really pressed about that personally and showed the showed the prowess in the postseason two time NLCS MVP one a 1981 World Series got the MVP that’s big for me yeah you look at you look at I think about the time that he came eligible on the ballot you saw the Home Run surge of the 90s and the 2000s especially at the first base position and so his his numbers in comparison really seem started to pale and I think think that’s part of the biggest problem is because we we didn’t see the numbers in garvey’s Era like we would go on to see in the 90s and 2000s and now what’s expected of your big first baseman to hit a lot of homers um so I I think that’s part of the problem is that the um you know there’s other players that have you know built up that number to what seems like it should be you know where he should be able to to get but the uh also there seems to be uh a little bit of u a very messy personal life with Steve Garvey but at the same time this is not necessarily something that the character Clause is used for and then and that’s something we’ll talk about I’m sure uh as well here as we go along because I I’ve really got some some gripes with with you know the character Clause being used to keep out a Hall of Famer but I’ve I’ve also you know set my piece with that for a long time so we’re both in on Dick Allen both in on John Donaldson both in on Steve Garvey here’s the thing you can only vote for four as many as four so we’ll see where we go from here Vic Harris is next up he is he received 10 out of 16 votes in 2022 two vote shy of induction into the Hall of Fame you look at his baseball reference page it’s very similar to John Donaldson’s in that there’s not a whole lot to be found you have to do a little bit of digging in on him he’s not really going to go in for being a player now to be fair in his playing days he did have a career 303 batting average and you have 31 homers not nearly enough 391 RBIs not enough where he makes his money as as a manager 547 wins 278 losses appeared in three negro World Series won one of them and never had a losing record ever as of the homestead Grace yeah seven pinets with them some sources even counted e in in 12 Seasons which was unparalleled in the major Negro Leagues um it’s you know what he was as a player was a good ball player with you know good speed and he was you know a more a you know people pitchers were more afraid of him on the base pass as opposed to him at the plate but when he you know what he ended up becoming as a manager was you know he was more quiet and reserved um so it’s it’s one of those things that you know he was a fiery player on as as a player and then they you know he didn’t say a whole lot and preferred to inspire his players by you know by example to give their Maxim bird as well I mean I’m not going to say that I’m totally against him being inducted in you’re not going to see me throw a fit if he does you know get the two votes that he needs and you know I’m just more compelled by other cases yeah that’s exactly where I’m out on currently but I would not be mad if he got in I’m out on him for now but again like you said I I it’s just because there’s there’s a lot of deserving candidates on this ballot and um and I mean we could you know we could make a case for all eight of these guys in all honesty but I won’t be upset if he gets in here’s where it gets a little bit more challenging Tommy John received three out of 16 votes necessary uh in 2020 so I don’t know where to stand on him because he has a higher career War than Jamie Moyer and Jim cot Jim cot of Hall of Famer Jamie Moyer is not when I look at the numbers in the career accolades Tommy JN looks a lot more to me like Jamie Moyer now all three of these guys had a lot of longevity people view them differently yeah for me for me Tommy John’s closer to Jamie Moyer than he is to Jim cot so I I don’t know I don’t I I I just don’t know that it is enough for me I’m I’m right there with you I think he he falls a little bit short in only four Allstar appearances that’s all he’s got for a career accolades no World Series no you know no MVP No Sa Young no anything like that and he pitched 26 seasons and you know he was active for a you know like 12 Seasons before his surgery that inspired the name Tommy Jon surgery obviously that gave Fresh Life to his you know career he pitched for 14 more seasons after his surgery so um I I think the biggest thing for me is while we should be you know appreciative of what he was able to do and and being able to continue his career I just don’t think of him like he he was he’s more of a compiler in my book and I don’t think that he ever really came close to being Hall of Famer even if he’ stuck around and somehow found a way to get 12 more wins over his career or somehow top out you know 750 more strikeouts I don’t think if he’d hit those 300 wins and 3,000 strikeouts in 25 26 Seasons that that would have been enough I just I’m out on him but I could understand the case for him and and I won’t be upset if he gets in I just I don’t think that I would vote for him this time at least so how do you differentiate between him and cot he had more Allstar appearances than cot cot only had three however cot does have a World Series win which counts for something and 16 gold gloves which is pretty remarkable for yeah I think and that’s I think the biggest thing um when you look at the uh when you look at what cot was able to do defensively I was trying to um I thought I had the ability to uh compare the two and maybe I do I’m just trying to find the uh yeah here we go I think I can do that uh so let let’s do this for you let’s do this for you so you want T Tim Jim cot and Tommy John right I’d love to I’d love to get a trio of Moyer in there with them too I can yeah I could do that for you is that possible to have all three should be let me let me add them so here we go with Jim cot Tommy John and Jamie Mo I think Jamie Moyer is a Hall of Famer because I don’t okay and you want me you want me to share this see if we can get this uh okay give me one second let me pull this up on our big screen here uh while we wait for this to pop I mean these are the three pitchers who have pitched a a literal ever pitched literally forever right right so for me it’s one of those things where I really want so Tommy John has the highest War out of the three see if you can zo on the page a little bit because it’s kind of pushed over to the left there how’s this better yeah okay so Tommy Johns got the most War out of out of the trio Jim caught through the most games Tommy John has the most starts the most Innings uh looks like Jamie Moy has the best winning percentage because he won less games but he also lost less games Jim Cott has more saves Tommy John has a better ra and ra plus Jim Cod is the better strikeout pitcher Jamie Moyer was the better strikeout percentage Jim cot walked the fewest and had the lowest walk rate how crazy this is I mean there like you said there’s there I think I think this is the biggest reason right here I think this is the biggest reason why Jim cot’s in the Hall of Fame and the other two aren’t he WS 16 gold gloves Tommy Johns got four all starts Jamie or only had one and Jim cot only had three but you know the counting stats and even then I don’t necessarily agree that this should be in the category for for Moyer just because he lost less because Tommy John’s got more wins and less losses than Jim Cott so you can make the argument especially when you look at the or um that Tommy John should get in I just I feel like I like uh I like some of the other cases a little bit better on this ballot as opposed to that of Tommy John and that’s why I don’t that’s why I’m I would be a little bit out on him this time around but not necessarily saying I wouldn’t vote for him and I won’t be upset if he gets in because he’d be able to give a speech in Cooperstown next year I want to pause on Dave Parker for the moment go to Louis ton since we’re on the topic of pitchers I believe this is Ton’s first time on a committee vote I could be wrong about that so in the description if I am wrong about that uh do let me know BJ unless you have seen let’s see before on a yeah I’m see here I’m trying to find trying to find out his uh so yeah he appeared in the veterans committee ballots of 050709 he maxed out at 25% this is now his fourth appearance on an era committee ballot he was previously considered along the likes of future Hall Famers Jim cot Ron Santo Gil Hodes mini manoso and Tony Oliva ol Oliva yeah Oliva yes I uh plus this ballots Kim Boyer as part of the 2012 Golden Era committee ballot for candidates who made their greatest impact as well as a similar cast that also included Dick Allen and three years later in both cases he fell short of the necessary support uh customarily the hall lumps together all the candidates below a certain threshold as receiving fewer than x votes to avoid embarrassing them or their descendants with the news of a shut out when they reconfigured the era committee system in 2016 he wound up classified within the Modern Baseball era after finishing below the threshold for votes on the 2018 ballot he was bypassed for the 20201 which ballot gave Dwight Evans and Lou Whitaker their first shots and I’m all for those guys getting um the uh you know getting a chance to be U you want to talk about a guy that for the most part other than his age 27 season was a late bloomer because he was so good so consistent in his 30s the the lack of consistency in his 20s really hurts his case I feel like he made an All-Star team three times in his career never won a sa young two-time ER title yes the career war is really solid I’m not there on him I I just simply put I haven’t really gotten there he was he also tailed off at the tail end he really should have retired uh after his age 37 or 38 season I don’t think he should have went I think he should have retired in Boston instead of playing those extra for Yanke the Pirates the Angels the Angels yeah so I think here’s here’s here’s the biggest thing when you look at what he did he posted a 1.6 ER Mark in 1968 which was the year that pitchers had an incredibly incredibly unfair advantage over hitters because of the the changes they made so that one kind of feels a little bit you know like maybe not necessarily it was his fault but it does get knocked down a p but he also had an erra Mark of 1.91 in 19 72 uh you look at you know he would have been a probably finishing second for the Sai Young in 68 if they hadn’t only been allowed to vote for one player as opposed to you know submitting a top three so it’s possible that he would have you know placed a little bit higher as opposed to just fourth fifth or sixth plus he also finished in 68 tied for fifth in the MVP voting with the Orioles Dave MCN that year you look at what else he did later on like you said a little bit of a a late bloomer the the really the the case for him is you know you look at the range of pitchers between 210 wins and 250 wins um and there is just not a whole lot of them that have made it to the hall of fame there are 53 pitchers that are between 210 and 20 50 career wins and just 15 of them are in the Hall of Fame nine of which began their careers before 1920 uh the the biggest names that or the names that have made the Hall of Fame since 1921 um that have finished with less than 250 wins are Whitey Ford Jim Bunning Juan marishal Catfish Hunter John Smoltz and Pedro Martinez so there is hope with a couple of those guys having debut after 1965 for Lou tant but when you look at some of the other names in this uh this range you know it it just feels like he just doesn’t quite stack up to some of the others yeah um I I I would vote for him and especially since he he just recently passed and I feel terrible that he you know never got a chance to to be alive for a possible induction because of how many times he came up short but I don’t I don’t think it’s going to end up mattering I don’t think he’s going to get in this time I won’t be upset if he does though and uh we should also mention that he just recently would have had a birthday had he still been with us but so yeah I mean I’m out on him for now I just don’t know that like that the case is compelling enough for me I would I would V for him in an unlimited um vote I’ll will say that yeah um Dave Parker this one you and I had a lot of discussion and discourse about I was initially in on him doing a little bit more reading a little bit deeper of a dive into the stats in a lot of ways he was just super inconsistent look good at certain portions of his career won an MVP W some gold gloves has the accolades the accolades are there the question becomes how much are you going to hold against him for the cocaine Scandal really I mean for it’s a big thing and the question is do you are you there on Tim Reigns who was implicating the same thing I’m not sure I would have voted for Tim Reigns I’d have to look into his case a little bit more I had him initially but I’m I’m gonna be out for now on Dave Parker because of the lack of consistency never mind that the cocaine Scandal it’s just the lack of consistency after a certain point is just a little too much for me so the biggest thing with Dave Parker and and you know this is where you and I we we had a discussion about you know rains and and cocaine with versus Parker and cocaine I feel like Parker’s career tail died partly because of cocaine I never got the feeling that Tim reigns with the way that he he performed and he continued to perform despite you know having the issues with cocaine he continued to Pro produce and and be you know play at a caliber that would be in the discussion for a Hall of Famer I feel like Dave Parker was the wrong end of that he was playing at that clip and then when he got involved with the cocaine you see it just Contin like nose dive that and you know really having a lot of issues with you know fans in Pittsburgh which is unfair to Dave Parker and and I’m and I hate that because you know this this was the guy that had to replace Roberto Clemente um and you we talked last week about our Mount Rushmore and you know I had Roberto Clemente in my baseball Mount Rushmore just because of what he meant and and the impact he had on uh you know players that would come up from the Latin America countries so Dave Parker had to follow him and he was a really good player really good reason for their the pirate success and and ended up you know getting them that uh being a part of that world Series team in 79 the We Are Family Pirates but it’s just that downfall that he had he was banged up with injuries you know had a a lot of uh and issues with with the fan base which isn’t his fault but you know it’s it’s one of those things that ultimately I think was part of the reason why he would get into the drugs which then you know led to the uh the issue so listen to this from 75 to 79 he had a war of 31.1 which is fourth in the majors behind Mike Schmidt George Brett and Rod Karu his war from 77 to 79 was 21.1 which was third behind Schmidt and George Brett but even with the title uh or the batting title and the World Series Championship um you know he was the target of criticism and even racist hate mail and he skipped the World Series parade he had trouble with his knee in 1980 his production dipped low 20 homers 80 runs bed in and a 115 Ops plus he total just one and a half war and 138 games after the 80 season he had surgery to remove Tor carage in his left knee but the injury bug kept biting he had injuries with his Achilles his thumb as well as the player strike that limited him to just 140 games between 81 and 82 where he Ted just 15 homers and less than one war in 8182 and 144 games in 1983 he managed his 12 homers a 97 Ops plus and 0.2 war after that point he went back home he signed a couple a two-year deal with the Cincinnati Reds instead of staying in Pittsburg because there was you know more issues with fans that were uh you know unhappy with him and and started throwing things which is just horrible but ultimately for me you know he just he never quite was the same after the 79 season and so you look at that 5year stretch he was you know up there as as one of the top five players in the game but it’s just I I don’t think he comes up and and has enough to get in myself I mean it’s if if he was able to steer clear of of the you know the drugs and and B been able to you know have more luck with the injury bug he might have been able to get to the tallies of 3,000 hits and and maybe even over 400 home runs but as it was he he came up short with uh 2712 hits and just 339 home runs in his career so I I think he just came up a little bit short to me and uh just you know the lack of consistency the thing for me when the dust do settles we can vote for as many as four and as many or as little as zero um obviously you’ve already heard our discussion you know that neither of us are voting for zero so I’m gonna go ahead and say that I would vote for three my three would be John Donaldson very obviously uh I think he has the most compelling case potentially more career strikeouts than Nolan Ryan is uh quite the feat um Dick Allen Rookie of the Year and MVP yes short of 2,000 hits but I think he’s there he’s one vote shy from where he last pulled at I think he’s in for me and then Steve Garvey we we talked about his case I feel like good postseason performer at times great postseason performer uh was on some really good Dodgers teams and was just a really really great player for a good portion of his career other than the first couple years and then the last couple years which is typically what you see so those are my three BJ you have four right I do have four I’ve got the three that you mentioned which is John Donaldson Dick Allen and Steve Garvey Steve Garvey I mean obviously he was like Mr California baseball for the entirety of his career so like I mean not just the Dodgers but also playing in San Diego that this was a guy that you know what represented the the Sunshine State or not the not the Sunshine State but the Golden State uh in that era but I also am of the notion that if I’m voting for Dick Allen I’ve got to have Kim boy on there I feel like I would if it weren’t for the fact that you know Dick Allen maybe has a little bit more recency bias his his case has you know kind of jumped up here in the last decade or so and been really uh you know passed around as as a you know more of a need of a pressing emergency type of candidate worth taking a look into and I think he’s a Hall Famer I’m I’m voting for him but I think Kim Boer might be better and I think that you know he should be included as well so Kim Boer gets my last spot as well and I’m not going to make race an issue as well but Boer was white dick Allen’s black dick Allen is getting more of a look now you know at in especially now that he’s gone Boyer died well long ago with with cancer and I really don’t feel like he’s ever truly gotten that kind of somebody was that’s you know kind of beating the drum trying to convince people to you know really take a look at his case especially at third base where I’ve said multiple times that I feel like third base is underrepresented in the Hall of Fame so I’m I’m putting Allan Boer both on my ballot as well as Donaldson and Steve Garvey those are my four names so that do it for the classic era ballot and you see just how passionate we are about this we’ve spent an hour on this ballot byas about about 45 minutes because we did the immaculate grd and we put our best effort into that so this is aiming to be one of our longest episodes ever by the way so bear with us you got you got a bedtime or is it just me H all right uh the main hall of fame ballot let’s get to it uh here you go this is the main ballot we’ll read the names off Bobby Bru outfielder Carlos beltron outfielder Mark Burley left-handed pitcher heartless Gonzalez outfielder Curtis Granderson outfielder Felix Hernandez right-handed pitcher Tory Hunter outfielder Adam Jones outfielder Andrew Jones outfielder there’s a lot of outfielders on this first column I didn’t even think about that until you’re going through and naming positions I’m like holy crap yeah these are all outfielders second baseman Ian Kinsler catcher Russell Martin catcher Brian mccan second baseman Dustin pedya uh Andy P was a right-handed pitcher correct left-handed Lefty Andy P left-handed pitch Hanley Ramirez infielder Ramirez outfielder Fernando Rodney right-handed pitcher Alex Rodriguez Third Base Francisco Rodriguez right-handed pitcher Jimmy Rollins Short Stop CC Sabathia left-handed pitcher Ichiro Suzuki outfielder Troy Tula whiskey Short Stop Chase Utley second base Omar visell Short Stop Billy Wagner left-handed pitcher David Wright third base and Ben zist second base I’d say also in and utility I could say that so um want to talk a little bit of just general things about this ballot first of all you have I believe it’s 14 holdovers from last year and 18 new guys I want to say it’s the number I think there’s 32 guys on this ballot that sounds right okay let’s just start off the rip right here talked about it last week you had him on your Mount Rushmore ich your row icho is likely to become the first Japanese born player to be inducted into Cooper’s town does he go unanimous I he should I’m gonna say no but I think he gets north of 98% because I think ultimately and I I also struggled with this I’m I’m not necessarily perfect in that you know the way we did our ballot is we tried to you know keep ourselves to the same standards that the bbwaa would I almost submitted a strategic ballot without erro Suzuki because I know he’s going to get in I know he’s going to be a first batt Hall of Famer I know he’s going to clear 90 even probably north of 95% like I said I think he could get upwards of 98 plus percent of the ballots so my thinking is I want to support somebody that I’m worried is not necessarily going to get that 5% and should you know get another look and and more time on the ballot to have their case be discussed so that’s what I feel like some ballot some voters are going to do and that’s why I don’t think he’ll end up being unanimous even though he should be because I mean there there’s really no reason why nobody except mariana rivera could have been you know unanimous but that’s neither here that shows the flaws of the voting system in my mind that Mo not to say that Mo doesn’t deserve it because he probably does yeah I I don’t know there it’s it’s because we are so you know only 10 players you know like instead of just saying hey do you think this guy’s a Hall of Famer yes or no and you know we have 75% of people that say yes like that’s how we do you know that’s just how we vote for president when you’ve got you know two candidates or however however many candidates you vote for you know you say do I think that this person should be president yes I check that one now you can’t check any more than the one of course but this is not necessarily you know the highest person in the country this is honoring some of the best players in baseball history and I don’t think we should limit ourselves to 10 because how many we go we could go back to 2014 2015 ballots and see how many Hall of Fame players just in the span of the next few years that we had to clear off you know how many players were on those ballots that were Hall of Famers that not not you know we had more than 10 Hall of Famers on those ballots that had to wait and had to you know see all their time go from 15 years to 10 years because you know of how many worthy players and eligible players there were if we just had a system that said is this a player of Hall of Famer yes or no and we could go yes and we get 75% of people saying yes they’re in and we don’t have to worry about them coming back and clogging up the ballot year in year out I I just I think it could be done so much more efficiently yeah and I should I should uh take back what I said because there’s 28 players on the ballot um so we have 14 and 14 okay you count them up while I was ranting yes I did I’m glad you listened to me 14 one of 14 players uh that is a newcomer to the ballot also joining Carlos beltron Curtis Granderson Felix Hernandez Adam Jones Ian Kinsler Russell Martin Brian mccan Dustin pedya Hanley Ramirez Fernando Rodney CC Sabathia and Troy to litzky alongside Ben zist as well it’s important for all rookies and really for a couple candidates that we’ll talk about such as uh Francisco Rodriguez Tory Hunter David Wright some of those guys that have been towards the bottom of the percentage vote it’s important for all these guys Burley as well burle counts in this conversation it’s important for them to get to the 5% threshold because the 2026 incoming class is less than impressive I’m just going to run through some of these names that we’re gonna see on the ballot for the first time next year and I feel good about all these guys being on the ballot I’m not sure about anybody beond but uh Cole haml Ryan Brun Alex Gordon Edwin and corosion shinsu Chu Hoy Kendrick Hunter Pence and Matt Camp so this is this is the covid year right or this was yes yeah so this CL that retired after the co season right so that’s that’s part yeah and so that makes sense um you know obviously that was a weird year we’re going to have a weird Hall of Fame year as a result so um you know when you look at like you said this is important for some of these guys just to be you know able to you know make that surge above 5% and get another shot next year because I I think we’ll see at least three maybe even four people that get in this year um I I think it’s very possible at least and so you’re G to have at least you know probably 10 players from this year’s ballot not make it to next year’s ballot Billy Wagner whether he gets in or not is not going to return next year we’ll get to him his case here in just a second so the more of a chance you have to fight into your second year the more of a shot that I think you’ve got to be really really evaluated and and you know in position to have a shot going forward in the years to come because of how the classes look next year the only Shire pick is off of next year’s ballot is Cole Hamil like to me only feels like a short fire hall of f to yeah to stay above 5% at least I mean I probably will too I think and Alex Gordon deserves didn’t Ryan Braun have some I don’t want to necessarily SP he got for using steroids but I still think he’ll cross the 5% based that’s what that’s what I thought it was like a failed urine test or something that’s that’s the one thing I thought I remembered about Ron that um but yeah it’s a very underwhelming 20126 class so if you can get above 5% you’re at least staying on the ballot I think for and that can be enough I mean all Billy Wagner needed to start jumping his case was to make it on to the next ballot I mean it can be that important right and also seeing the Log Jam clear out above him too so speaking of Billy Wagner does he get it done this year he was five votes shy last year bju and I are two of the biggest Billy Wagner proponents out there we believe closers deserve a place in the hall they already have a place in the hall Trever Hoffman and Mariano Rivera are already in the Hall of Fame then eesley Hoy Wilhelm Catfish Hunter guys like that BR Bruce sud I I would leth yeah I mean come on we have these guys in the Hall of Fame yeah it’s great okay so if your stance is that you would not have voted for any of those guys that’s great you can hold that stance right and not put Billy Wagner in the Hall of Fame but because they’re vot for those guys Billy Wagner deserves to be in I don’t care what his postseason numbers are I’m tired of that excuse I’ve listened to it for five or six years now Trevor Hoffman was awful in the postseason that doesn’t matter I so I was a big and I I told you this I don’t know if I said this on the program I was a big Trevor Hoffman guy I was I was shocked it took more than one or two years for him to get in ended up taking him like two or three years it wasn’t until I think it was a Twitter account talking about Billy Wagner’s you know numbers compared to Trevor Hoffman that I really realized crap that guy absolutely has a case and ever since then I you know I included both Wagner and Hoffman on my ballot and I’ve been stumping for Wagner to get in ever since Hoffman got in and and Wagner’s been the only one that’s you know on the ballot and and waiting his turn waiting patiently I might add but I I think he does because I think there will be enough to answer your question I think there will be enough new voters that will put him in especially with getting that usually you see a little bit of a bump for a player in there last year and sometimes it’s it’s you know close enough that it get them over the hump in the case of Gary Sheffield last year he wasn’t close enough to get when he got that hump uh to get closer it wasn’t enough to get him above 75 but he’s got a case that will be re-evaluated by a committee here in the next couple years himself as well yeah and uh I’ve already seen a couple of Voters say that they’re going to be brand new voters that did not have a vote last year that have said that they’re going to be voting for him okay I feel pretty good man yeah I feel pretty good about his case as long as he doesn’t lose a whole lot I don’t I really don’t think he I don’t think he will I don’t think he will next up and and I want to pull another one of our side by-side comparisons and okay I’ll give you the three players but first before we get to the these three I want to specifically talk about Carlos beltron okay because this is a guy who has the numbers for me I mean it’s it’s pretty obvious his career line tells me that he’s a Hall of Famer and his little thing is a little different than cases like Barry Bonds Roger Clemens Sammy Sosa um and other players he didn’t do steroids but he did sign steel and he was actively a part of that how do you police that and it’s different from Pete Rose I mean he gambled away games that’s that’s a whole different mod I would I would say so so okay I and I you know maybe it’s because I I’m an old softy and he died this year that i’ I’ve reevaluated but at the very least Pete Rose you know he bet on his team to win he was not betting against his team and saying oh these these guys are a bunch of Scrubs I’m in the stance that he that Pete Rose deserves to be in the Hall of Fame anything to affect his playing career right absolutely I’m right there with you your playing career you’re not gonna get a lot of brownie points with me I’m anti-steroid I always have been I want to be consistent on that yes and look there’s there’s pieces of of baseball history from Barry Bonds Alex Rodriguez all these guys in Cooperstown already they don’t need a plaque to have their place in Cooperstown okay you’re absolutely right and and we we’ve always been very similar in that respect because I’m also cut from The Same Cloth in in respect to you know they’re in Cooper’s town they just don’t get a plaque in my book because you know they they probably had they never touched the stuff would have been in there no doubt first ballot plaque and everything had they never touched this stuff I mean you can’t tell me that Clemens and bonds had they never touched PD wouldn’t have been Hall of Fame athletes cuz they were even before around the time that we think they got involved with steroids I think they were on track if not already you know had the numbers to be Hall of Famers Barry Bonds for sure in my opinion did but that’s the problem is that in trying to go above and beyond and and cheating the game is where that and that that’s what ultimately ends up being the um the biggest thing for me and and so in that same respect I had not voted for beltron the last couple years and I always said Bon’s performance as a player is Hall of Fame worthy but because of the stero because not the steroid but because of the sign stealing he can’t go on first bout he cannot be in my book at first B Hall of Famer I have to do it has the stats to be a first battle Famer get there with him on his first year because of the sence stealing that somehow yes I left him off his first his first two years and then I really you know I really evaluated and really you know did a debate on whether or not to include him over some of the other candidates this year we’ll find out if I voted for him or not later on in this uh episode but I I think that that window I’m not somebody that’s going to punish him and then vote for him year 10 or whatever I’m not that kind of person I think for the science dealing I think a couple years you know five at most is probably amount about the amount that is needed so I did not vote for I would not have voted for him in his first year but in his second year he was on he was on my hypothetical ballot last year see if he’s on this year did you want me to compare him to somebody else no I didn’t want to compare him but but because he’s one of the returning outfielders to the ballot I wanted to talk about the three that I want to compare Andrew [Music] Jones hold on see Andrew Jones Bobby abrau okay and Tory Hunter all right here we go uh because I know that you might have very interesting opinions of these three players specifically yeah they all play The Outfield position I’m not saying that they’re all the same player but I just wanted to be able to get their their main numbers side by side here yeah and I’m working on that that we we should have that here on all at the same time let me zoom in and you should have that now on your screen if I need to zoom in again let me know okay so you have Andrew Jones who has the most career War of the three but Bobby Bri played more games has more play appearances and more hits than it than either of the three Andrew Jones says more home months despite you know fewer play appearances and games than the other two H right uh Tory Hunter more RBIs but Bobby Ru more stolen bases a better batting average a better on base percentage Andrew Jones a higher slugging percentage which makes sense uh a Bru Ops and Ops plus uh or higher five allst stars a piece for Tory Hunter and Andrew Jones while a br you made two 10 gold glove for Andrew Jones nine for Tory Hunter one for Bru one Silver Slugger for both Jones and Bru 2 for Tory Hunter so how do you how do you go about judging these guys right because uh how how do you how do you make a case that none of these guys should be on if if you are a believer in you know looking at these cases I mean I I I’ve really liked Bobby abu’s case for a long time now and and been I think stumping for him but if you like Bobby Abu Andrew Jones the you know the better defensive player more G War more homers more gold gloves uh and obviously more Allstar and then you got Tory Hunter who also had more all Allstar than AB BR but and and a one more Silver Slugger Tory Hunter the only thing he’s really you know he finished with what is that uh 28 more runs beted in in his career than Bobby AB in you know like 50 less games something like that but he was 10 wor off of a Bru at his you know for his career so I I think that’s the biggest thing is that if you’re a hunter supporter but not an Abu supporter you really should re-evaluate if you support Jones you really should be supporting a Bru as well and that’s I think that’s at the end of the day I think this if you’re supporting Jones or hunter or both you and you’re not supporting Abu that’s where you are making a mistake so it’s interesting because these three players are are at completely different points in their their B Andrew Jones what got 60% last year and and I don’t think six% and what was his seventh year this is his eighth year so he’s got three more years on the ballot including this year right Bobby Abu was on his fifth he’s now on his sixth and Tory Hunter was on his fourth now his fifth okay and Bobby Abu was at a point where he was just trying to start growing his case he’s in the mid teens midle 18s um with where he’s at Tory Hunter is at was at 7.3% it’s big that he stays above the threshold or he’s gonna fall off like Jim Edmonds did like Kenny did yeah and and that’s part of the reason if if you are you know if you’re a a proponent of of the hall and especially evaluating center field Jim Edmonds King Lofton absolutely were some of the biggest snubs that we’ve seen up there in the likes of Lou Whitaker in my opinion and so for a person like me I’m I’m obviously a big supporter of Jones and a Bru but I also want to give Hunter some attention and make sure that he gets another you know look because hope if if a guy like Tory hunter gets in at some point then we really need to go back and say Yes Kenny Lofton yes Jim Edmond come on down you’re the next contenders for a plaque in Cooper toown because they should be and they should never have been one and duns yeah I like this idea of comparing players and uh I do too I want to do a I wanna I want to do a four player comparison because I know you can do it I can I want to do the second baseman next because I feel like that’s an underrepresented position in Cooperstown oh I should say I would vote for all three of those guys so Bru Jones and Hunter you you can do up to six you can do up to six I would I would to you’ll see if they’re on my belt as well um Utley padya Kinsler and zis Utley okay padya Kinsler kinler and zus let’s see here uh Kinsler we just go position by position here and talk about the cases we we really could do that yeah um okay so getting this ready on the big board one second I hate that it it takes some time but okay so if that’s ready to go we reveal that chase sley more war than any of the other three um more games Kinsler more plate appearances he actually has more hits than any of the other one sh I know that’s so crazy I I really thought he was gonna uh come back and try for for more kenler only two off of utley’s home run total RBI he’s about you know 116 off uh stol on bases kendler has more Pedro has the best batting average and on base percentage out of the four slugging is utle Ops and Ops plus is utle three championships for padro with the Red Sox in the U you know uh late uh 2000s through the 2010s one for Kinsler and one for Utley I didn’t remember Kinsler getting a title two championships for zist uh six All Stars for Utley four for Kinsler four for padya three for zist one MVP for pedya four gold gloves for pedya compared to two for Kinsler none for Utley and zist four silver Sluggers for Utley one for padya and one World Series MVP for Mr Ben zobrist so that’s about the only thing he’s got going for him in this uh for comparison right here so so this is really interesting right it’s it’s really hard when you when you get down to it if you’re a small Hall person if you’re a small none of these guys none of yeah yeah absolutely and and that’s a you you made the the point that second base is is also you might go with if you’re a small hog guy eventually think I I think Utley would probably get the most of the love especially with that war being so much higher than any of the other three but if you’re a counting stats kind of person kenler with the stolen bases kinler with the hit total he’s very comparable to Utley in terms of the home runs not you know obviously it’s the rbi’s pale in comparison but also think about Utley was more middle the order hitter versus kendler was a lead off hitter most of his career at second base padro was at the top of the order zis around the top of the order ‘s the only one that I can recall that was hitting middle to bottom uh or middle third to like you know I mean I think the highest he ever bet in the lineup was second yeah so he didn’t get a whole lot of RBI or he got more RBI opportunities than any of the other three did just because of where his teams batted them it’s really tough I mean it’s great that you know that uh Ben zis won a World Series MVP it’s great you know that he won a couple titles the rest of the stats just really aren’t there I think I’m pretty comfortable in saying to Ben zis really respectable career did some cool stuff thanks for playing all very good Hall of Fame not so much the other three I would vote for we’ll see if they’re on my Ballot or not I am I’m beginning to come around to the idea of voting for the other three we’ll see if they’re on my ballot as well uh because I mean I don’t know I’m I’m kind of feeling like maybe none but I’m also feeling like maybe there should be a case for all three of them to be made we’ll see let’s go and take care of the remaining outfielders that are on the ballot start we’ll start with Manny Ramirez we won’t we won’t do any more comparisons with the outfielders but do leave that uh comparison tab up for now because we will have more um but let’s talk Manny Ramirez real quick because he’s part of the steroids thing too I I don’t know if did he ever get he got suspended for full season at the end of his career and instead of that he retired so yeah that for me that’s a pretty pretty blatant no even if he had the the totals and and would have been a Hall of Famer had he never been you know anywhere around the Mitchell report or even if he’d been like Anonymous any name getting getting caught and retiring rather than you know a one-year suspension that that’s a pretty big uh you know red flag for me in terms of without those without those red flags he’s a Hall of Famer for obvious reasons but right just not not for us um we have three other outfielders that are on the ballot Carlos Gonzalez Curtis Granderson Adam Jones all great players in certain Seasons Carlos Gonzalez has such a great swing but it’s just a matter of thanks for playing I respect what they did in their careers they’re not Hall of Famers in my I their cases specifically it’s just not enough for me and there’s better outfielders on the ballot that I can’t in good conscience vote for them over some of these outfielders we’ve already talked about if we can’t get Jim Edmond and K lton I can’t in all good conscience vote for cargo Granderson or or uh Andrew or Adam Jones I should say let’s go ahead and get the three closers talk about them I I know we talked a little bit about Billy Wagner already let’s go ahead and compare Billy Wagner Fernando Rodney and Francisco Rodriguez okay Fernando Rodney and uh Francisco Rodriguez rodri krod okay all right so while this comes up we can watch it together all right we zoom in I I just okay I have to say every time I see it love Fernando Rodney with the sideways hat that’s a Hall of Fame level that’s a great right there so yes Fernando Rodney I I respect you uh immensely more games than Wagner krod but less much less war than K rod and Wag war man I mean on the war he was I think he was more of a setup guy for most of his girl wasn’t he yeah you also can’t have a 48 and 71 win loss record right K krod krod most Innings one five more wins but 13 more losses than Billy Wagner uh ended up 15 more saves but look at that 73 more Innings and only 15 more saves than Wagner and then everything else look I mean that’s it it speaks for itself if you’re looking at the three on this ballot wner is your only guy if you’re going to vote for one of these guys the only thing is no championships Rodney and krod both got a title seven Allstar for Billy Wagner compared to six for krod and three for krod has two relievers of the year and it doesn’t show up on here Francisco Rodriguez has the alltime single season sa 62 2008 Angels so but that’s again that’s a question of yes he did but at the same time how important is The Stave category is the biggest question very it’s still very important because for it’s it’s the are you telling me that Fernando Rodney is on this ballot for anything other than his save number because there’s no way you’re convincing me there’s no way you’re convincing me that the that he’s on the ballot for any reason other than the fact that he has 327 career saves yeah yes it’s very number and and even then I I don’t know honestly how that was enough for him to get on the ballot um but so I if we not electing Houston Street and like other guys what are we doing electing Fernando Rodney right but I will say I would vote for Francisco Rodriguez and I would vote for Billy Wagner I would absolutely vote for Billy Wagner I’m very I’m not I’m not sold on krod and I’m definitely not voting for Nando Rodney thanks for playing but um I feel like for for closers if you can get to 20 War I’m I’m gonna I’m gonna look at you pretty seriously yeah and and maybe maybe I’m unfair to KRON maybe I mean that to me I’m I’m more out than in but we’ll see if if uh you know we’ll see if I change my mind or you know I mean y know um before we get to anybody else and I’m just trying to double check myself here to make sure that I’m not you want to pull up the the regular ballot because I mean we kind of have to address uh certain uh we talk about krod but we have a pair of third basem on this ballot that we need to talk about I don’t really feel like comparing them um because I don’t think they deserve to be compared in the same sphere Alex Rodriguez and David Wright let’s start with Alex Rodriguez steroids I mean that’s just kind of where we’re at with that David Wright listen he started his career in my hometown I love the guy I want him to be a Hall of Famer so bad injuries isn’t gonna let that happen and I I I just haven’t been able to ever get there on him it’s not enough for me I I would not vote for him for the Hall of Fame and I and I’m sure that’s going to draw some ey from certain listeners but listen I I I can’t get there it it’s just not quite enough I’m I’m so glad that he’s on the ballot for more than one year though because it shows that people are at least thinking about him a little bit did did we talk about was it was it David Wright and Ken Boer that you wanted to compare earlier yes but but I wanted to compare it wasn’t necessarily I wanted to compare their numbers I mean you can still throw it up there you can compare the numbers but for me it was more of a comparison of their career Arc in that they were really good for about a decade and then they fell off a cliff right I I mean other than I mean batting average is wi within 10 stolen bases right had more but he was probably faster I don’t know much about Boer speed on Bas is within 30 slugging is within 30 Ops is within you know 60 Ops plus right I mean I thinky obvious on that but again it for me the comparison was more so of their career Arc right and it’s very similar fell off very quickly um yeah they’re very similar in that respect so that’s where I stand on those guys um just a little bit shy on on both of those third basem for you let’s go ahead and do the two catchers Russell Martin and Brian mccan because I think what we’re gonna find is something particularly intriguing uh on these two guys and catcher such a tough position we saw Joe Margo in on first ballot last year which I did not expect I mean I I would I had him on my ballot last year but I did not expect he’d go in first ballot no I think there were a lot of people that didn’t expect and here here’s already an interesting development Russell Martin better War wise but more mccan more hits mccan more homers more RBI better better batting average I mean mccan was not a threat to steal Russell Martin I’m really surprised totaled over 100 stolen bases in his career comparable op in terms of within 12 slugging McAn Ops McAn Ops plus McAn a championship more all stars and more silver Sluggers but less gold gloves so I mean it really comes down to what you value if you are looking behind the play as a back stop if you like War then you’re probably thinking Martin I I feel I feel like mccan is if you’re going to go with one is is probably the better it just depends like like you said if are you valuing the defense more or the offense I don’t have a problem with either of these players being on the ballot I’m biased towards Brian mccan because he’s one of my favorite catchers ever yeah because I grew up a Braves fan in the era that he was the Braves catcher so yes I love bmac I’m not going to be upset and I think he has a shot to get to the 5% um I I will be very surprised if he does I I I think that it’s it’s I think he gets to the 5 per I think it’s just a position that is so under represented that that there’s gon to be enough people that say Hey I want some more consideration for Brian mccan yeah I’m not mad that Russell Martin’s on the ballot either because I think he’s one of the more underrated catchers of of this generation that nobody ever talks about so yeah I mean the numbers aren’t there and the accolades aren’t there and no he’s not a Hall of Famer but I’m not upset to see him on a ballot I’m really not here’s here’s a look compar that’s what I’m saying it’s like that’s why that’s why Brian mccan will barely get over 5% if he does get there because they’re coming behind an era they’re they’re in between they’re go they’re showing up on the ballot in between Joe Mau and Buster posie because we’re gonna get Buster posie here in a couple years as well yeah those two guys are sure fire hall of famers that’s tough for Brian mccan to compete with that right right that’s very hard so so um I’m out on both for now I I would not vote for either right now but I’m not gonna be mad to see mccan get to 5 per. I I I hope he does but I’m it’s this is a tough ballot to feel like there’s going to be you know a lot of these first year guys that are going to be able to get to that 5% Mark I mean it’s we’ll see we we got a ton of pctures to as well and that’s we’ll get to those pitchers but I want to do the Short Stops first finish the position players we have four Short Stops that we can compare here uh Hanley Ramirez is the first one okay you have Jimmy Rollins Troy tulowitzky and Omar viscel ew sorry I’m sorry I’m sorry I have to specify saying ew for Omar the skll because that guy is a total creep uh so I mean you could not have four different players right that are somewhat comparable in a lot of ways good Rollins more war tulo is closer than you think viscel is closer than you think but also viscel is a more of a compiler because of how many look at that he has almost 2,000 more plate appearances and 700 more games than Jimmy Rollins did and he only got 422 more hits than Rollins did uh Ramirez is the most home runs out of the the quadrant viscel with 15 more RBIs than Rollins um tulo has the best batting average OBP slugging and Ops hany Ramirez finishes with the best OPS plus though and then you have Hanley and Rollins who both won titles all three of these guys with three allers tulowitzky with five Rollins was an MVP once Hanley won a batting title Omar Bale was an 11 time gold Glover and also hit his wife uh Jimmy Rollins four time gold Glover tulo two gold gloves two silver Sluggers for tulo and for Hanley Ramirez with one Silver Slugger for Jimmy Rollins all right so let’s go player by player here and I have to bring this stat up because I see it every year and it makes me giggle uh on Omar viscel if Omar viscel returned to baseball and hit 400 consecutive home runs his career Ops would still be 12 points worse than Scott Rollins it would also be worse it would also be worse than Tory Hunters he’s not a Hall of Famer I don’t that’s great he had nearly 3,000 hits that’s phenomenal and what 30 years absolute freaking wizard 30 years he had 30 years in the league is that what I remember like he he was a wizard defensively don’t get me wrong there were some great things about his game post career man oh man also his wife he well not just that either not just that either you’ll have to you’ll have to look more into that because he’s just a real character off the field and um I really don’t like to throw the character Clause because we literally threw the character Clause out on Andrew Jones well it’s a little different I mean if it’s a little different but I mean we we’ve had this argu not not even argument for per se but we’ve had this discussion because I am somebody that I yes character Clause I’m perfectly fine with being used like if you want to keep a guy like Albert Bell who was just a total dick to you know reporters and teammates everything like that you would keep him out because that fine Kurt Schilling is a Hall of Famer and I don’t care what he did after his career and his dislike for journalists their Mutual dislike for him he’s a Hall of Famer get your panties out of a wad get him a black and let bygones be bygones yes I mean maybe what he said or maybe him talking about Tim Wakefield when they wanted to keep the issue of his cancer diagnosis private not the best move I can understand that but at the same time everybody was so caught off guard and and there was so much outpouring of love and support for the wakefields because Schilling said something about it if it had been something that just was you know total surpris and we were all caught of guard nobody would have ever known about it had chilling not said something and I think that that you know whether it was his decision to make or not it needed to get out there and I don’t necessarily think that Schilling did it as a selfish teammate or because he didn’t want to respect the wishes of of the of the Wakefield family I think he did it because he knew how much Wakefield was loved not just by his teammates but by the fans and so I I character clause for me I we’ll we we’ll talk about Andrew Jones with the character Clause later because we’ve already gone so long and I don’t want to go any more any further down this rabbit hole but Omar Omar vcll is not a Hall of Famer and I the character Clause doesn’t even come into it but he would definitely be disqualified under that if that was something I cared about Henley Ramirez thanks for playing brother uh you are not consistent enough in your career the consistency not there and and I’m kind of big on that I mean he hit the home runs he was really good with the Marlins and at times good with the Red Sox it just didn’t really come together over the course of an entire career H very good Troy to lewitzky a better case than I thought but really after he left Colorado his career became nothing injuries too do it for long enough again right injuries too I feel I’m not mistaken so Jimmy Rollins H man I love his case MVP it’s big he’s got an MVP just like drya um of these guys Rollins is the only one that I would vote for his case is really compelling he also has gold gloves he also has a Silver Slugger he’s got uh three All-Star appearances he won a World Series I mean he’s got everything that you’re looking for other than the war that a lot of shortstops have well he’s got the most out of the four well yeah I’m just talking about Short Stops that are already in the H oh okay right right I I’m I’m I’m [ __ ] I I’m I’m a [ __ ] yes um no I am uh I’m somebody that could absolutely see myself voting for T litzky and Rollins out of this four if I had the unlimited space but I’m I’m out on hry Omar yeah and I’m not even gonna feel bad about it uh and then we get to the pitchers let’s just go ahead and get to them uh Mark Burley hold on Mark Burley and Mark Burley man I can’t wait to talk about him oh brother Mark Burley Felix Hernandez Andy petett CC Sabathia all right just those four yeah what do you say man about this era of starting pitcher I mean you have you have guys that had a lot of longevity that we don’t see in this day and age okay I don’t I just don’t think we’re gonna see very many 200 win pitchers no moving forward we got we got yeah we got three on this one um the biggest thing when you look at this quartet of pitchers CC Sabathia obviously I think is probably the best out of these four in terms of you look at the war you look at the Innings he got the strikeout he got the 3,000 strikeout 250 wins which is very comparable to Andy pet it’s total um Andy pet of course as you mentioned uh to off the uh podcast was on the Mitchell report if I’m not mistaken named in the Mitchell report that’s gonna keep them off for me look at that look at this look at this ra+ look at this ra plus all four of these guys are right there at the same that’s unbelievable I am out on pedit because of that I don’t care if he wasn’t like convicted of it that’s that’s great it’s still possible that he did and as long as he’s a possibility or a likelihood that he did I I just can’t get there especially when his numbers are at least somewhat relatively very similar to Mark Burley who we know did at clean also Andy petett did what he did with really good teams with New York and Houston now Houston maybe not the best at that point but yet right for for New York yes absolutely they were a really good team Mark berley did it with the white sock who had an appearance in the World Series five but otherwise no and then he was with Toronto and Miami so bur Burley and pet actually squared off I think pet was part of that 05 Astro Squad if I’m not mistaken so he was pitching when beltron bio Bagwell those guys were part of the early uh 2000s burkman and Blum I think were a part of that team as well those teams well that’s why they called them the the killer bees um but yeah they had Clemons and petett for a time there when they weren’t in New York they were both in usess well it was you know really interesting I think they had um uh right-handed p uh Oswalt not pet Roy uh Roy Oswald so I would vote for three of these guys Hernandez Burley Sabathia I would not vote for pet I have voted for Pettit I think in the past you have I I’m pretty sure if I’m not mistaken I haven’t as of late but I would vote for all four of these guys even though I feel like Felix’s case is probably the weakest yeah it’s tough Felix is right there right there on the tail end he would be one of the bottom three players elected into Cooper town in the last 20 years I also think I also think that Felix is the litmus test for what we’re going to see the Hall of Fame do with pitchers from this era going forward so if Felix doesn’t get in that’s really going to be tough for pitchers in the 2010s 2020s and going forward because what exactly do you have to do Felix Hernandez didn’t get the Run support he was always a really solid erra type of guy and you know pretty consistent in terms of strikeouts even if he didn’t get a whole lot of wins to back it up I mean he won the Sai Young with what less than 10 wins if I’m not mistaken one year so that and that’s why you see the ra plus is right there comparable with a Burley and a Pettit and above that of Sabathia which is a little bit you know boggling even though they’re right all there in the grand scheme of things and then you look at the awards and honors if he does get in six All-Star appearances for Felix Hernandez is going to be why same number as Sabathia one more than Burley three more than Pettit championships nobody’s going to beat Andy Pettit with the core four getting five Burley had one CCE got one with the 09 Yankees uh both Felix and CCE won sa young Felix was a two-time erra title Burley won four gold gloves nobody else won any and pedit and CC both won an LCS MVP award question CC Sabathia is it possible that he gets the Mike muc treatment my inclination is no because of ballot crowding not being a big deal this go around also I think people are gonna I think voters are going to see that 3,000 strikeout Mark and just go with it oh yeah he he’s I think he is closer than a lot of people think for the Hall of Fame this year than you know I don’t not calling him a first ballot l no no no I don’t think he is but he’s gonna be closer than I think a lot of people expect be just solely because of that because he got to 250 wins because he got to 3,000 strikeouts and because he was so uh he was a player that people really liked watching as his career worn wore down I remember a lot of people that weren’t Yankees fans were hoping that he would get to those Milestones just because who knows the next time we’re going to see somebody get to 3,000 strikeouts in a career who who knows the next time we’re going to see a pitcher get to 250 wins in a career we were cheering this uh past year for way W just to get to 200 yeah so I that that’s the real reason why I think he’s got the best shot out of anybody out of these four but I would vote for any of these four in in all likelihood at some point and go ahead and pull up Mark burley’s profile so that we can talk specifically about Burley because I he doesn’t have the name recognition right I mean but I want you guys to see why this guy deserves I just want you to show his pitching log okay let’s see his a standard pitching log I believe I’m I’m trying it’s it’s wanting to be yeah here we go that’ll that’ll do it how’s that if it decides it wants to show up all right here we go there so the first thing you’re gonna notice he had he pitched for 16 years 15 of those 16 years he won 10 or more games with those three teams right started 30 plus games in every year 15 out of 16 average winning average win loss record of 14 and 11 in 15 16 years yeah and uh he had 33 complete games 10 shutouts he has four consecutive go gloves he has All-Star appearances with every single team that he pitched with with the excep of the Marlins but he want a go glove with the Marlins this is a guy who had a career that was incredibly respectable an Iron Man career yeah four seasons of five or more anymore he was never hurt he never ever ever got hurt in his career he’s a Hall of Famer to me on that alone there’s no picture that’s like him on the ballot no also if you look back and you realize how quick he was he was a pitch clock before there was a pitch clock and maybe that’s something that in this new era of baseball with the pitch clock there might be more recognition and appreciation that hey he was he was trying not to make sure these games were going three and a half four hours you know without the pitch clock he was locked in ready to go and you know so I’m I’m right there with you I I like I said I would absolutely vote for all four of those guys in one form or another and we’ll see if I voted he only had 1870 career strikeouts I get that strikeout numbers aren’t there he he only got As many 165 in 2004 mhm I said this to you off the podcast right he is Greg Maddox stylistically he’s Greg Maddox without the strikeouts right that’s fair I think that’s that’s all he lacks is the strikeouts that Maddox has he doesn’t hard he’s a pace of play pitcher and well the only other difference is that burley’s a lefty and Maddox is a righty so right also keep in mind that two of these pictures on this ballot uh this year how perfect games Burley and Felix Hernandez in fact Burley threw multiple no hitters uh he had the perpect game against the Rays in 09 and the no hitter against Texas in ‘ 07 I’m understanding of the fact that Mark Burley doesn’t have the name recognition of a CC Sabathia or a Felix Hernandez I respect that concept but you need to respect the numbers if if you’re not in on Mark Burley I mean I don’t know what to tell you but I would vote for all those pitchers with the exception of Andy P at this point in time so I believe I’ve gotten everybody on the ballot I don’t believe I’ve forgotten anyone you can double check we can double check real quick let’s see I don’t we have I think we got yeah I think we got everybody yeah I think we’ve got outside of I think maybe rro but rro is a slam dunk so we don’t need to compare him to anybody so before we get to our ballot I want your prediction who gets in this year erro Wagner I’m gonna say two I’m GNA stop at two I think Sabathia will come close I think Andrew Jones will take another big step forward setting himself up for induction next year when the ballot is very lean and and there will not be nearly as many players for consideration in the first year category but I’m going to stop it two I think we get ich and Wagner and Sabathia and and Andrew Jones are probably the next two look looking in we’ll see you know who takes that next step forward um I think if if I’m remembering right beltron was very close to Andrew Jones as well I’m very interested to see where he ends up because he could also in theory set himself up for induction uh next year if he takes another big step forward because he’s he’s about 18 15 18% somewhere in there if he gains between 8 to 10% this year I think he could make up the difference in 2026 and get in then all right so here’s some predictions Ichiro and Wagner are getting in for sure CC Sabathia just for the sake of being different I’m gonna have CC getting in I think the 3,000 career strikeouts are gonna be enough for a number a lot of Voters so I think CC’s gonna end up getting in Andrew Jones will sit between 69 and 74% after this year 74 is on the very high end of of confidence there I I get that I I think he ends up around the 71% Mark personally that’s where I’m at with him okay elran will jump up I don’t know how much but the guy who’s going to make the biggest jump this year will be Chase Utley okay where was he last year I don’t uh let’s see I think he jumps 15 to 20% this year I think that’s a real possibility he was at 28.8% I think a 15 to 20% increase is not out of question yeah that put him around 45 somewhere in there um I don’t think Alex Rodriguez Manny Ramirez Omar viscel Andy petett make much of a joke jump personally Jimmy Rollins could Crest 20 to 25% he was at at nearly 15% him and AER are kind of in the same boat they both pulled at 14.8% of the vote um I think David Wright falls under the 5 perc I do not and I think Burley Rodriguez and Hunter stay above so listen to this so there you said with Andrew Jones and beltron we’ve seen uh three candidates cross the 75% threshold after receiving less than 65% the year before Mike m was at 63.5% he jumped up to 77 the next year and got inducted Larry Walker was at 54.6 in 2019 and he jumped 22 points for induction in his final year just barely getting over at 76.6 and then Scott Roland just a couple years ago was at 63.2 uh in 2022 and then got 76.3 so uh both Jones and beltron are above Larry Walker but also not in their last year on the ballot so we’ll see where they end up jumping up it’s possible but I think they’ll both come up just shy those that get over five% of the first year players Felix Hernandez Dustin Pedroia Ian Kinsler and uh Troy tulowitzky I say Felix I say Pedro Boston voters yeah I say I say Felix Roya tulowitzky and yeah kinler I think kinler maybe M maybe mccan maybe mccan we’ll see maybe I don’t I don’t see Gonzalez Anderson Adam Jones Rodney I don’t see it was zis I don’t really see those guys Crossing five% there’s an outside chance with the World Series MVP that Ben zis crosses five we’ll see an outside chance and a very low percent chance at that point uh okay now it’s time for the main event what you guys have waited basically two hours to see under and a shout out to our Guy Stephen uh making us ballots now for the last couple of uh Graphics that is for the last couple of weeks do apologize for misspeaking there it is very late when we are recording this but uh yeah but you’re not you’re not the guy that has to get up in five hours let’s go ahead and show him and let’s talk about him all right let’s do it okay so we end up having a number of very similar players on our ballot in fact we end up having seven of the same players on our ballot I did not really go strategic I I went strategic last year I was concerned about Tory Hunter reaching the 5 percent so I dropped off Bobby Abu to add Tory Hunter I have now flipped the script on that remember I did say that I would still vote for Tory Hunter um aside from this list that is not on this list I would vote for Chase Utley Ian Kinsler Tory Hunter and Felix Hernandez so obviously we’re both in on Ichiro and both in on Wagner that’s pretty obvious we’re both really compelled by the Rollins case um Andrew Jones were able to get past the character Clause thing on and which I like I said I mean we talked a little bit about it off the podcast Andrew Jones I was one thing that her his wife then later reneged on and so I’m I’m that whole situation was I I mean I don’t know I don’t I don’t think it was enough in my opinion to take away what he was able to do on the field and even if uh and if if it was consistent like if it was a you know a uh uh Ozuna situation or even a a scele it would have been much more weighing heavily on my mind feel like yeah we also have Bobby auu again Bobby coming back onto my ballot after being off the ballot last year yeah and you’ve been you mentioned you’ve been in on the Bobby Abu case for multiple years now correct we’re both in on beltron at this point and I mentioned that I I I brought him onto my ballot for the first time last year he sticks on it this year I mean I don’t have a reason to take him off I’m Not Gon to not have him on his first ballot add him second and then drop him on his third that’s not happen I didn’t have him my f his first two years but I add him here in year three for the first time uh because I think that I was you know I gave him a couple years suspension and that was enough at the end of the day for me um I’m yeah we both voted CC you go krod and Wagner and and I respect that but I’m not I you can call that sort of strategic like yeah like sure Chase utley’s Hall of Fame case Ian kinsler’s Tory Hunter even Felix Hernandez have a stronger case than than krod yeah but it’s a strategic vote K Rod’s only at seven let’s see he was at seven point he was at 7.8% last year so I mean he was really he was really I mean if he doesn’t get like 10 votes he’s out yeah so the biggest thing the biggest thing for me is that this year I like like I don’t I think we talked about it I voted Pettit in 2023 and then I dropped him last year he’s not on the ballot for me again this time the one that hurts the most that I couldn’t like the one that would have been there had it not been for a little bit of strategic voting I I’m I’m say trying to save Felix Hernandez for consideration so I I Dro Burley because I’m also adding beltron for the first time so beltron is an ad but Burley loses a vote you’ve got him again with rro with beltron with Hernandez all getting votes for me for the first time uh it’s it’s tough to find you know room when you had four players last year I believe um either go off The Ballot or get into the Hall of Fame I I voted uh bele Mau Helton and uh uh who was the other one that would have been left about or maybe I only had room for three yeah I think it was I think I only had three openings and to make sure that I gave Felix another shot next year I had to take Burley off and so that’s the one that you know putting beltron on for for Burley or Hernandez on for Burley is one that hopefully will get both back next year and and they can both be on the ballot uh I don’t think I don’t think I’ll be adding petett back but CC you know Felix and Burley absolutely would get votes for me here’s the thing Jimmy Rollins has a has a stronger Hall of Fame case to me than Dustin peda but they both have MVPs in that era of baseball that they that they played in winning MVPs is really hard to do I had to go with Dustin Pedroia over over Utley over kinler like I I would still vote for Utley and Kinsler if not for the tin ballot 10 player limit right and I would vote for padro and Kinsler especially now seeing how close Kinsler is to uh utley’s some of utley’s numbers like that you you you made the argument you said after I’d sent my ballot in that kinler you know has more of a case than you think and I I really I didn’t scoff at you but I also wasn’t necessarily evaluating that because I’m a Rangers guy and I always always enjoyed watching kenler but I never really thought of him in that conversation even when watching him play you know so that that was where I came off it was just you know I think he was really good but I didn’t really consider him up there until we we see some of the numbers and how comparable they are to uty it’s just the War I think is the biggest difference really and here’s the thing because Andrew Jones was a really good player offensively and defensively so for me it’s it’s the total package it’s tougher between Abu and Hunter because Abu was the more consistent bat and Hunter was the more consistent glove which one do you value more and and historically I valued bat over glove and I I was able to rare which is rare for me when it comes to what I look for in today’s player because I love good defense in today’s age but AAU was just a more consistent player you also have the concept that Bobby Abu is a top five Venezuelan of all time so I feel like he should be in the Hall of Fame Nation but I also mentioned that I would vote for Tory Hunter it’s really hard and I couldn’t give him the final spot over Burley is so convinced on burley’s case right I I can’t I’m NE I don’t know that I’ll ever take Mark Burley off of my ballot as long as he is on the ballot and that’s fair you cannot do what Mark Burley did being Iron Man never miss a start never miss a game never get hurt you can’t do that have a perfect game and a no hitter had win four consecutive goal gloves was an All-Star for every team he pitched for with the exception of the Marlins which was for one season had a great age 35 season the guy was incredible the guy the I mean I don’t care that he doesn’t have the namesake I put CC Sabathia on here Felix Hernandez I mentioned that I would vote for I don’t think Hernandez’s case is as strong as burley’s Hernandez wasn’t Hernandez didn’t have the longevity that Mark Burley did didn’t have the Iron Man status so over the last three years I’ve voted for both Abu Tory Hunter uh Andrew Jones and uh Jimmy Rollins over the last or and and also uh Billy Wagner so those are the five what half of the ballot is just holdovers from not just last year but the year before that as well the only one I voted for Burley in the last two years but I just wanted to give Felix Hernandez yet another shot and adding beltron in as well with uh erro and Sabathia you know four guys that I hadn’t voted for last year with three of those being firsttime somebody had to be you know take the short end of the stick Burley as soon as a spot opens up is getting back on this ballot next year I can tell you that because it’s slim pickings next year I I like I said if we get two or three in that clears things up considerably and I really want to re-evaluate some of the the guys that we’ve talked about that might have a better shot than we expected um but aren’t necessarily getting the love and it’s just going to be really interesting to see how it all plays out next one more time I want to bring this up one more time because just projecting out a little bit here we think that icher o and Wagner gets in I’m of the mind that CC Sabathia gets in I’m very fair with that I mean if that if that’s I’m not even gonna rule out Andrew Jones getting in I mean I think it’s a long shot but if he if we go with the concept the crazy concept that he gets in that’s four spots immediately right I I think we we get no less than two no more than four I’m thinking I think two and or and three is probably fair I think that’s probably the I think we’ll get we’ll have you know anywhere between six to seven to eight holdovers so if you go with that idea and say ich youro Wagner and Saia get in that’s three spots immediately for me that I can use for Utley Kinsler Hunter Hernandez and haml haml is going to get one of those spots I mean the guy the guy was great he’s a Hall of Famer to me three spots between how many guys five right is that how many five and then and then you get two spots to decide between Utley Kinsler Hunter and Hernandez yeah and I think one of them’s gonna go to Tory Hunter because I want to get him back on my ballot yeah and then the question is the question is is do I go with one of the second basem for the final spot or do I go with Felix Hernandez and finally finally give him a look so that I mean if we get three spots that shows you how I do I think I have to go and I think that’s fair I mean if we if Pedro gets 5% I think he would get consideration for me next year if kendler gets 5% I think he’d get consideration from me next year looking back at at this ballot out of the first timers if if any of them get 5% McAn will get a relook I mean if if mccan gets back on if tulo somehow finds a way yeah tul is another one that I could take another look if if so that’s at most four guys to you know try to find some room for if we get three or four spots open what do I got you on krod ah I don’t know I’m just what’s your I mean you gotta de you have to develop a standard for Clos and I would say that krod is probably my standard I think so the thing about it is is I think what we’re about to see because we’re getting to the end of I mean we got what papel Bon and um Pap Bond’s already been on the ballot he didn’t make the 5 percent well no okay so who Am who am I thinking of if it’s it’s that Pap Bond it’s um there’s a couple of active clo crit Kimbrell and uh J yeah Chapman Jansen those are the kinds of guys I think that we’re going to have to you know have some discussions about because we’re also getting into this era of closure that is not necessarily focus on the save but coming in at these big leverage moments and so the stat the save numbers might not necessarily be there so are we we’re about to re-evaluate potentially how we view closers or view the later stages of the game in the bullpen because of the way that managers these days are uh using their High leverage arms so I’m I’m not necessarily saying that I won’t give you know credit to a guy like krod who I we may not ever see somebody get 60 plus saves again I mean we you know it was it was one you know it was it was truly something impressive when Eric G did like 70 or 80 plus in a row uh without bowling a save we’re not we’re not anywhere close to to seeing those kind of numbers I don’t anymore and so I think that’s that’s something I’m going to have to look into K Rod’s the best the best closer on the ballot at least through 2028 because are you gonna tell me that you would vote for somebody like Zack Brittain or Mark Melanson over krod those are two guys that are gonna show up in 2028 no there’s no shot Greg Holland no way no no shot who else who else Tyler clippard no way no uhuh Walkin Soria no but yeah so but that’s the thing is that I also may not I mean KRON might be the last of the relievers that I would even think about I mean that we may not see a reliever outside of Billy Wagner and krod that get in for you know another 10 years potentially depends on how long some of the guys that are still active continue pitching so I don’t know it’s it’s there’s ‘s a lot to a lot of stuff that can happen and I’m I mean I’m not wishing for the holidays to go by very quickly but I am very interested to see how all this plays out because you know here at the end of next month at the end of the year ballots have to be you know postmarked by December 31st to be considered and counted and we’ve seen in the past where some ballots that were in the tracker were not actually a part of the final tabulation because they weren’t received so as yeah they got lost in the mail so as close as it might be because we do have you know ballots that from legitimate you know uh writers that have sent theirs back always take for you know that that might not end up being 100% I don’t know that I think it’s gonna be really a question of it being close this year like it was last year we we got the idea eventually that Joe Mau was either going to miss it by a few votes or get in by a few votes and the same could be said for Billy Wagner Mau got in by like three votes and Wagner was yeah so we we’ll see I don’t think it’s gonna be that close I think Wagner’s gonna end up getting in by 15 to 20 votes I do yeah I he could he could close close in on 80% depending on how much of a bump he gets in his final year yeah absolutely um yeah so that’s that’s the biggest thing is to watch how close is CC does he get in does he miss by a few votes you know rro we know is the only certainty for sure I we think Wagner is for sure as well um so in terms of first year guys for rro that he will not be back next year so it’s it’s G to be very interesting to see how it all plays out and and that’s one thing I’m really looking forward to in the new year what is it January 22nd I think that uh they announced the ballot the 21st that’s a Tuesday so let’s see here uh the ballot yeah it’s the 21st which is the Tuesday I think that’s also the day that we’re supposed to start going daily well that might we might that might be our first pre-record for the next day’s results or we react live that might be worth reacting live to so yeah oh yeah we’re going to react live that I mean that’s just that’s about when will we find out the classic baseball that’s what de no DEC 8 December 8th I think okay all righty um but uh but yeah I I’m really interested to see how this goes um actually I believe when this episode will release we will have ballots we should have ballots so you’ll want to be tuned in to the tracker team uh Ryan Tibido uh Adam door and Anthony cus unfortunately they’ve moved over to Blue Sky now and not Twitter so uh if you want to really follow it I think there’s also a website uh I think it’s not Mr tbs.com something like that it’s not that he’s got a it’s um uh let let me see let me pull it up here it is yeah it it is so it redirects to bbof tracker.com but if you put in notmrtibbs do.com it uh it will take you there so yeah you got a stample ballot in there right now we don’t know who that is we won’t we won’t talk about it um I don’t think know if it’s a real ballot I don’t think it is I don’t think it is but um we should have ballots start starting to get released and talked about um when this episode drops so when we come back next week we’ll react to those ballots uh and we we’ll break down each one talk about our likes our dislikes I have a feeling the writers are going to tick us off a lot we’re going to react to everybody so even if you’re not able to or don’t want to join the ranks of Blue Sky I will for the purposes of this um if you don’t want to join the ranks of Blue Sky keep it tuned here to the immaculate in we’ll talk about every single Baseball Hall of Fame ballot that drops here leading up to the election in January one of my favorite times of the year I really love doing this and um really looking forward to uh seeing what the Riders are thinking this go round can we finally get Billy Wagner in please God let Billy Wagner be a Hall of Famer La If he if he had gotten five more votes last year it would have been just the ultimate class because you would had Mau Jim Leland uh Todd hton Billy Wagner Adrien belter all the same year that would have been unreal class we we would have we would have like stowed away on a flight somehow we would have gotten up there last year up to I we both really wanted to be anyway so yeah so um so yeah that’s what we have for this episode it’s the main idea if news breaks between well well we’ll see whenever news breaks we might we might go do an emergency live at some point but uh I don’t know what would be breaking in between now and next week but we I mean that’s the beauty of it is that we we didn’t know what we were going to get outside of some awards last week and we were you know jam-packed you know loaded with that show and now we’ve gone another two hours more uh talking about just about the Baseball Hall of Fame ballot that released last Monday so yeah so there you go that’s our breakdown of the 2025 MLB Hall of Fame ballot feel so weird to say it’s so crazy yeah and we are two and nearly two and a half hours in into this we knew it would be a long one but um hope you guys enjoyed it hopefully that makes up for us not being able to do this Live Hope you guys uh enjoy this episode we’ll be back start the month of December Happy Thanksgiving everyone hope you enjoy a great time with your family and also don’t forget about the other shows here on the loud Mouse Sports Network final Corner stick Taps and if Tyler so deems us worthy of getting a uh a college football video sometime this week yeah and then it’s rivalry week we need football videos damn it I don’t know I don’t know when this is going to start either but we are going to have case studies a new series yeah coming up rather soon that I’m really excited to get started on and uh just sitting down and finding a time to do the research and record it so it’s that type thing no kidding no kidding there’s there’s been a case study that I’ve been working on for like five years now but the good news at least for that series is that football season is over for both me and BJ so we should both be able to contribute a little bit until basketball season starts basetball which may or may not be the whole reason that we are not tonight H the life of broadcasters man and uh well you’re back from sort of yeah I am we we’ll talk more about my trip next week because I’m exhausted I’m jet lagged and I’m really tired and I want to go to bed and because I haven’t gone yet all right all right all right yeah now we’ve done giving everybody the knowledge that we recorded this before you left nobody will ever know when it was recorded it was just recorded sometime I’m just gonna go ahead and say it we recorded it literally after last week’s episode was it was it I don’t I it might be the next day at this point it’s so late I I’ve lost track of time what does that clock say two in the morning are you serious no but it is it is about 10:30 on the on Central time and 11:30 here on the East Coast but if anybody’s still watching this then yeah you guys should be CED off by now certified wackadoos like we are this has been episode number 23 of the Immaculate inning I’m clay Ramsey alongside BJ ludmil it’s time for us to go to bed so have a great night everyone get some good rest and enjoy your Thanksgiving day tomorrow have a good everyone

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